What’s life like for young legal professionals in Tampa Bay? On this month’s episode of Real Cases, we talk to three Stetson Law alums with prominent positions at law firms in the greater Tampa Bay community: Ciara Willis J.D. 16, a Partner at Bush Ross, P.A. who practices community association law, Matthew Ceriale J.D. ‘19, an Associate Attorney at Shumaker, Loop & Kendrick, L.L.P. who practices civil litigation, and Danielle Weaver-Rogers J.D. ‘13, Senior Corporate Counsel for Labor and Employment at Qualfon Data Service Group, L.L.C., who works in employment law. They talk about life in Tampa Bay, how they got into their current line of work, and how their experiences at Stetson led to the jobs they have today.
Transcript:
Speaker 1 (00:01.614)
The one thing I like from the legal perspective in Tampa is the variety of legal experiences that you can have. I always describe Tampa to people as a little bit eclectic. And I think that, in fact, both the legal community and the day-to-day community, which is, you know, you're almost looking at a market. When you look at a market like Orlando, there's only certain sectors that most of the large law firms are in. But when you look at a market like Tampa, look at who's coming into the market.
You see a lot of large international and national firms who weren't previously having a footprint either in Florida or Tampa specifically, who also may already have a footprint in a larger market like Miami, and they're still taking the time to open an office in Tampa.
This is Real Cases, a legal podcast presented by the Stetson University College of Law. We'll sit down with Stetson Law faculty and students to examine today's critical cases and debates in environmental, international, elder, and business law, plus the role of social justice in these fields. Join us as we open the case file. Episode 24, Stetson and the Tampa Bay Community.
I'm Daniel O'Keefe, Master of English Literature from Indiana University. Today we're joined by three Stetson alums who practice law in the Greater Tampa Bay area. Ciara Willis, JD 16, is a partner at Bush Ross PA, where she practices community association law.
Matthew Ceriale, JD-19, is an associate attorney at Schumacher, Loop, and Kendrick LLP, where he practices civil litigation. And Danielle Weaver Rogers, JD-13, is senior corporate counsel for labor and employment at Qualifon Data Service Group, LLC, where she works in employment law. Danielle, Matthew, Ciara, thank you so much for being here. I figured I would start out by asking each of you to introduce yourselves.
Speaker 3 (01:53.767)
and to say a little bit about what you currently do when you graduated from Stetson and what drew you to the field that you're working in today.
My name's Matthew Ceriale. I'm with the law firm of Shoemaker, Loop and Kendrick. I graduated in 2019 and I'm currently working in civil litigation. So that's always a funny term, right? Because when people ask me, especially the everyday person asks me, what do you do? It's very hard to kind of communicate civil litigation in a pithy phrase, but the best I've been able to come up with is it's anything and everything in a courtroom. So arguing with folks or dealing with things, but it's not truthfully.
The accurate answer, right? Because the accurate answer is that when you're in civil litigation, there's as much work done in the courtroom as there is behind the scenes and out of the courtroom, at least if you're an effective litigator. What brought me to the field? I am not somebody with a long generation of folks who have been lawyers. In fact, other than my penchant for not wanting to listen to my parents as a young child, I don't think anybody ever had any predictability that I was going to be a lawyer. started as a criminal justice major thinking I was going to be a police officer.
And a couple of my friends had some issues with the law. And I realized that as much respect that I have for our police officers, who I know plenty of them in the Florida area, which has never really helped me. You're stuck at a certain point of kind of enforcing the law. You have some discretion as an officer as to who and when you write tickets. But at the end of the day, you're you're this arm of enforcement for certain of our state's laws, which is very necessary.
But I decided at that point that I wanted to have a little bit more discretion on who and how I help. And I ultimately landed on being an attorney because you have even more discretion if you don't want to help a client, if you don't think a client's doing the right thing, or if there's just not a right fit. And then alternatively, for those folks who have really been wronged or there's really something incorrect that's going on that's not in accordance with the law, you have that opportunity to be a voice for them. And that was a big draw to me, which is why I ultimately settled on becoming an attorney.
Speaker 3 (03:58.158)
That's interesting. Thank you.
Good afternoon. My name is Danielle Weaver Rogers. I graduated Stetson in 2013. I am a senior corporate counsel for a company called Qualphone, where I handle all of the US labor and employment. I guess I'll kind of add on to what Matthew said about kind of what drew me to, I guess, my particular area of law.
I didn't go to law school saying, hey, I'm gonna be an employment lawyer, right? I didn't really know what that was. Obviously, you know, working at various jobs, you know what HR is, but I never knew that there was a legal component to HR. And I took employment discrimination with retired, I believe he's retired Professor Bickel. And it was just an amazing experience. And I just fell in love with Title VII, different civil rights acts, the ADA.
And I said, you know, this is what I want to do. I also participated in the in-house council internship at Stetson and I was assigned to two phenomenal labor and employment in-house councils. And so ultimately that's what kind of led me to what I wanted to do where my experiences at Stetson.
Great, thank you.
Speaker 4 (05:17.614)
I'm Ciara Willis. I'm a partner at Bush Ross here in Tampa. I practice community association law, is HOAs and condos. And I definitely did not go to law school thinking that was what I was going to do. I'm the first lawyer in my family. And so I ended up going to undergrad and doing actually finance and economics.
at FSU and then when I got to Stetson, I was like, I had no idea what type of law I wanted. So I did a bunch of different internships at Stetson, which was extremely helpful. I loved the in-house council internships. They were fantastic because you get a wide variety of law. And then I actually started out at a different firm for two years doing more general business litigation and probate and trust. And when I was looking to make a move, I...
was interviewing at Bush Ross for their general business group, litigation group. And my colleague, Webb Melton, who is the chair of our community associations department, knew me through the Florida Bar Young Lawyer Division Board of Governors. I had served on the law student division, now called the law school affiliates at the law schools. And that experience at Stetson propelled me into both my first and my second job through connections and mentors that I made.
And when I was talking with Webb, was telling me he would be great for community association law, which I at first, I tell everyone when I was first slightly offended, what does that mean? No one likes community associations. But it was really a compliment because I like to call it in-house council kind of for community associations. They are businesses run by usually a manager and then a board of volunteers. And they are of all walks of life, ages, lifestyles.
And it's great to be able to try to help them both on their transactional side, running meetings, elections, and reviewing contracts to all their litigation. So it's different every day and really interesting, but I would have never guessed that this is the area of law I'd end up in.
Speaker 3 (07:30.892)
Now, Ciara and Danielle, both of you mentioned internships that you were involved in at Stetson that kind of played a shaping role in developing your interests. you talk a little bit more about those?
Yeah, so, Setzen has a wide range of internships. I participated in particularly three of them. One was the in-house counsel at the University of South Florida, which is my undergrad. So that was awesome to be able to go back to their legal department and learn from the attorneys that represent the university. I did a wide range of things, but my focus was labor and employment because I told them that was my interest.
So that was really good. I was able to get a lot of hands-on experience in that area through that internship. I also participated in an internship. I forget the exact name of it, but it's basically where you're placed with a member of the judiciary. I was placed with Judge Minkoff in the Sixth Judicial Circuit. I did a lot of bankruptcy work and just learning the behind the scenes of writing orders.
and different things that go into being a judge and working in that space was helpful to me as well. Just learning for like what judges look at, what things that you should, best practices. And then my other internship was the Bridge to Practice. It was like more of like a fellowship, which was very unique because it was available post-graduation.
So it was a fellowship where you were placed with a government and it was paid. You received a stipend for six weeks, but the hope is that you build a relationship there for them to be a reference for you in the future with future employment. So I did that. And I was placed with the city of St. Petersburg for that fellowship.
Speaker 2 (09:30.764)
I stayed there, I was like a fellow for the six weeks of the internship. Then I became a law clerk until my bar results came. And then ultimately when I passed the bar, I became an assistant city attorney and I was an assistant city attorney for seven years practicing workers comp and then moving into labor and employment.
I had a wide variety of internships as well. think the one that stands out to me the most is doing the judicial internship program with the Florida Supreme Court. I was able to intern for Justice Periente up in Tallahassee. I went up for a full semester. know Stetson has is one of, they only have seven spots, typically, I think seven to nine up at the Florida Supreme Court for law students from around Florida. There is
more than that in law schools, but Stetson is one of the schools that gets a spot every semester. So I was lucky enough to be selected to go participate. And I went up for spring, my 2L year actually. Typically it's, think you're in your 3L year, but I went for my spring and did 40 hours a week at the Florida Supreme Court and got credits for it. So that was what I did for coursework. It was such a fantastic.
learning experience as well as great connections and people I've met and learned so much from working there and what judges look at with attorneys and how they view those opinions. just, it was so invaluable. At the same time, I was thankfully able to continue doing some things virtually. So this was back in 2015. So before everyone was as virtual, but I was grateful that Stetson allowed me to be able to continue being.
on the journals I was on and participate in some of my other extracurriculars from afar. So that was super great. And then the two other internships I got through Stetson was through their career center. And I did those in addition to my coursework and got found paid internships at Bankers Financial Corporation, which I know they have a strong steady stream of Stetson attorney or students coming through, as well as Raymond James in their in-house council. And both of those,
Speaker 4 (11:50.23)
I learned so much because they have many different departments and I got to experience a wide variety of, of law because I did not know what area I wanted to be in.
Yeah, I'm interested to, you were all talking a little bit about that, but I'm kind of curious to hear some more about sort of what your journey was from being an undergraduate and being in your undergraduate major to making the decision to go to law school, right? Like what was it? And Matthew, you were talking a little bit about that, about how you started out in criminal justice and...
You thought that you wanted to become a police officer, but then you sort of realized that you wanted to take a different approach to how you were going to be thinking about and dealing with the law. And so I'm kind of curious to hear about that journey and what that was like for each of you, if you can put yourselves back into your undergraduate minds when you were thinking about that.
Wow. Yeah, right. Let's see if any of us can remember. I'll give Ciara and Danielle a little bit of time to try and put together a story from our past if we can. I don't know. I think I gave kind of the context of the reason and the rationale for my decision. So I think what I'll add is, Stetson? And certainly, I had a number of offers.
and luckily acceptances, whether with scholarships or not, to a couple of universities or law schools around the state of Florida and beyond. But for some reason in my mind, Stetson had always stuck out. I think that, number one, is a testament to kind of the brand recognition that the Stetson University College of Law has, both in the state of Florida and beyond. And there was a time when I was looking at even other jurisdictions like New York and
Speaker 1 (13:42.666)
Later I learned not at the time of admission, but later I learned of just how broad of a network that spans some of the major markets across the United States. And so what reaffirmed that kind of early decision when I didn't have a ton of information was meeting the people at Stetson, coming out and doing a campus tour, meeting the folks in admissions, meeting the folks in the business office, meeting some of the professors. And, you know, they say this the same for folks who are interviewing at firms is take a look around.
see how people look, are people happy to be there? What is the general camaraderie between folks there? And if you've ever met someone or do meet someone like the Darren Kettles of admissions, it's abundantly clear how happy people are to be a part of the Stetson community and how deep that loyalty runs. And so that kind of reaffirmed the decision. And here's the only other thing I'll add is my undergraduate was at the University of Central Florida, which at the time,
was the second largest college in the United States with over 60,000 students enrolled. Now don't think those were all full-time students, because even with the UCF campus' size, we'd probably all be bumping into each other. But what I loved about UCF and what I was not sure about coming to Stetson as a much smaller law campus, even though it's one of the largest in the state of Florida and possibly the United States, is was there going to be this degree of variety of people and backgrounds and resources?
And that's, think, the last thing I would say about Stetson that really reaffirmed my choice and that had been reaffirmed through my career as a Stetson student was that even though there's this distinction between the amount of students enrolled when you're talking 60,000 for a large undergraduate campus versus something like 3,000 for a law campus, which is still pretty large, the resources felt the same. So you can go to Stetson, have no idea what you're interested in, and just do the bare minimum.
and you will still be exposed to the language of the law, the lessons and the kind of institutional knowledge that's required to be effective, but it's kind of an onion. There are so many other layers. And as you meet professors and develop relationships with students and find different passions, you'll kind of be, and I was amazed at the amount of opportunities. So Ciara and Danielle talked about the internships. I think there's over 30 to 40 clinics and internships in
Speaker 1 (16:04.202)
in any number of areas of law, any of which you can access at the drop of a pin, whether it's talking to the folks in academic success or career development or anything else. And then you have all of kind of the passions of the professors. There are relationships with the DOJ Honors Program, which is no small thing. If you get to know the right professors, there are externships. And then on top of that, you have this catalyst of you can kind of even make your own way.
If you find a company that you like, I've never found career development or the office of the interns and externships to say, no, we can't do that. The response has always been, let's find a way to make it work. And so you can kind of, whether you come in and just do the bare minimum, but want to come out a legal scholar, you will do it. If you come in with a particularized passion, there's over 45 student run organizations in conjunction to the passion projects of the professors, you can find it. If you don't know what you want to do,
but you're open to being exposed to any number of areas of law. mean, between the Veterans Institute, the Elder Law Institute, the Advocacy Institute, there's any number of experiences that you can cobble together to truly find what you enjoy doing. And so I think that's a great testament that despite the size of Stetson, as compared to a large undergraduate community, it really has so many different resources to expose you to so many different fields of law or experiences.
in the law. And I think that's why coming back to the first point, Stetson has the brand recognition it has because the people who come out of that university are truly well-rounded, practice-ready lawyers. And it's something that people have observed since day one in practice that I think perpetuates that brand recognition.
So I attended the University of South Florida undergraduate right here in the Tampa Bay area. So, and I majored in political science and my minor was English. So was kind of, I knew I wanted to go to law school kind of going into undergrad, but I didn't know which law school, right? Or, you know, what type of lawyer I wanted to be. First generation, no.
Speaker 2 (18:15.788)
I didn't have any lawyers in my family. So I had to kind of navigate. And one of the things I really did at USF was get engaged into the community. So how I decided, you know, I wanted to go to Stetson was really through the connections and building relationships in the community. My senior year at USF, I served as an ambassador for the university, which is a representative of the president of the university. And you host alums on campus.
They come, they talk about their careers and just will help you in any way. Well, I met an alum from Stetson and she was phenomenal. She talked about her journey at Stetson. She talked about, you know, struggling and then still having the support that she needed. And she was just so friendly and so welcoming. And so afterwards, you know, I set up a time to have lunch with her. She took me to her office.
And I said, you know, if, if, you know, this was such a great experience for her, I have to learn more about Stetson. And I quickly was connected with Laura Zupo, the director of missions at the time. And she was just an amazing individual that answered all my questions, all my, doubts and my fears, right. And just really helped me to God. And I just really felt the, what we say, we are Stetson. I felt that even before I was a, a admitted student at Stetson, just the willingness of
the community alumni to help you and support you to navigate, especially if you just don't have a predetermined path.
Yeah, I would say for me deciding what law school was actually really hard for me. I had the hardest time figuring out what I wanted to do or where I wanted to go. I knew I wanted to probably stay in Florida. I had gotten into a lot of really good law schools, UFFSU Stetson, and I was like, I came down to those three for me. And I know people at all the other schools too, they're wonderful.
Speaker 4 (20:19.928)
But for me, when it came down to it, I didn't know what area of law I wanted to go into. And I was getting really hung up on the rankings because likewise, I was a first generation lawyer. My parents didn't really have input. asked a lot of different, every lawyer I could talk to, I asked for opinions and advice and Stetson throughout all of it. Consistently a great reputation.
wonder if no one had bad things to say about Stetson. And then I came and toured the school, Darren Kettles, I know was mentioned before. He was such a godsend, like so wonderful to answer. I had a million questions. And he answered everyone, was super patient with me, really made the experience enjoyable. Well, even though I was very stressed out and.
One of the things I came down to at the end of the day was, well, I didn't know exactly what type of law I wanted to do. I looked at what programs were ranked and Stetson has been consistently, not all number one in trial advocacy and top three in legal rating. And what two skills does every lawyer need? Even if you're transactional, you need to be able to advocate and legal writing on any...
job that you do as a lawyer, you need to be able to write well. And it was like, those are two programs I want to be part of. The other ranked programs are topics I already knew I didn't want to do at the other schools I was touring. And like Matthew said, look around at the people. And at Stetson, everyone was so friendly and encouraging and supportive. And I even saw it.
when I was a one-on-one, their classmates sending out outlines and helpful things. like, there's no way that they are genuinely this nice and just sharing their resources. I was like, there has to be a trick. Like I compared it with mine. I'm like, what are they doing? Like, what are they doing? I was like, trick their classmates. They weren't, it was genuinely an amazing outline and just super nice. Some of the other schools I've, I had toured, cause there was a number I was considering. One of them, even the tour guide was like, don't leave your books out because some.
Speaker 4 (22:36.48)
I take them or do something and you're like, that's just not the environment I want to be in. That sounds terrible. I want to be around other people. know, it is, it feels competitive, but you're competing against yourself. You need to do the best you can do and being around, you know, good ethical, like people who are trying to help each other is what I wanted. And I liked the environment. And so I ultimately picked Stetson and I've never regretted it.
Yeah, I don't know what exactly it was that occasioned this conversation with my parents at some point when I was a relatively little kid, but I wasn't even thinking about attending law school or anything like that. But I remember my parents telling me when I was relatively young stories that they had heard about people in law school, like tearing out pages of books so that other people wouldn't be able to access them and things like that. And I feel like that general ethos of
ruthless competition is one that you frequently hear about with regards to law school and one that Stetson really pushes very hard against and does a very good job of kind of counteracting with its community building among its students and faculty. Danielle, I'm curious to hear from you in particular about the fact that you're currently an adjunct professor at Stetson as well, correct?
Yes, so I normally teach negotiation and mediation in the evenings.
Speaker 3 (24:10.028)
And so I'm curious to hear a little bit from you about what it's been like to be on both sides of that experience, right? Both to have been a student at Stetson, but now also to be back at Stetson teaching as well, in addition to your other job.
Yeah, it's an amazing experience. You're able to really give back, right? So some of the things that my professors taught me, I'm able to share with the students as well as be a resource for them because I am a practicing practitioner, right? If they say, hey, like I'm interested in family law, I'm able to connect them with colleagues that practice family law for internships. So just being beyond just, you know, the traditional, this is what you should know.
but just really being able to help them navigate the practice of law has been an amazing experience. It's just so nice to see them, you know, once be your student and then, you know, you see them at a bar event and they're now an attorney. It's just nice to be a part of someone's experience and help them in any way you can.
Yeah. So all of you, one of the reasons that you're all here also is that in addition to going to Stetson, you all also continue to work in the Tampa Bay area. And so I'm curious to hear a little bit about that, about what was it that drew you to working in Tampa Bay, what's kind of kept you here, what you like about living and working in this area.
Speaker 2 (25:40.626)
so for me, I'm Tampa native, right? My parents came here in the eighties. My dad came here to work at MacDill Air Force Base and then became a police officer on the Tampa Police Department. And we've been here ever since. so, you know, went to Hillsborough County Public Schools, then went to USF and then ultimately Stetson. So I've stayed in the area.
One of the things that's really kept me in the area is just really been able to build connections with people that just will really help you. There's amazing leaders in Tampa that are just willing to be great mentors and you just don't find that everywhere. Sometimes, you know, for whatever reason, people have to kind of figure it out on their own, but I just feel like...
In the Tampa Bay community, it's not like that. You can always find somebody to answer your question or they'll connect you with someone to answer your question. So that's kind of really kind of kept me here.
And for me, I'm originally from the East coast of Florida. I was born in Miami, but grew up in Johnson beach, Florida, which is near Jupiter or West Palm beach. And then I went up to FSU in Tallahassee for undergrad. So I've kind of made the whole trip around. And then I really experienced a lot of the Tampa Bay area before law school. And I just fell in love with it. I think St. Pete is just wonderful, great beaches, great downtown.
There was so much to do. then over in Tampa, a little bit of a larger legal market across the bridge. Lots of people make the commute. I'm not willing to, but so I moved over into Tampa and I love Channel Side and downtown. And there's just lots of great restaurants performing arts and things to do. But there's also such a large legal community like Danielle was saying.
Speaker 4 (27:36.43)
I started networking in law school and I was very pleasantly surprised at how many people I would run into or knew in my first year of practice in Tampa. And it's really comforting to have met, you know, know the judges, to know other attorneys or to see your classmates whenever you're at the courthouse or going to a networking event. It's nice to have some friendly faces around and that community has been just wonderful. I think
For me, it's my favorite place in all of Florida and where I ultimately wanted to end up after. Even though I have friends and family throughout the state, Tampa just had the international airport, because I love to travel. It has all of the new things. It's big, but it's not too big. You can run into people wherever you go. You go to Publix or somewhere else. You run into people you know, and it's great. So it's big city feel, but also a little bit small town.
I know we're losing a little bit of that because we've gotten more popular, but it's, think you get the best of both worlds and I truly enjoy it.
So I am what Ciara and Danielle would call a transplant and may be part of the root of the problem getting too big maybe one day. But you can't stop people from recognizing a great place to be, right? So I actually grew up in the Northeast in Baltimore, Maryland and came to Orlando as a result of my undergraduate career and then came to Tampa as a result of my career in Stetson or we'll say the Tampa Bay area. And what's funny about that is the first thing I'll say to any of the students who are implying from out of state.
The people in Florida generally and especially Tampa are just so kind. I actually had to reteach myself, I think, how to interact with people because you carry yourself very differently in the Northeast than you do in the Southeast, Florida.
Speaker 3 (29:29.002)
I'm from New Jersey, so I understand the experience.
Right. mean, New Jersey is a place where if you wave at somebody, you might be actually starting a fight without intending to. No offense to any of those folks in Jersey, but they're probably going, yeah, he's right. And so I joke about that, right? Maybe it's something in the water. Maybe it's the weather. But certainly there's a community of people here that truly care about one another and it shows in their interactions. And so specific to Tampa, having been from Orlando, my intention was to go to Stetson in Tampa and come back to Orlando.
And the one thing I like from the legal perspective in Tampa is the variety of legal experiences that you can have. I always describe Tampa to people as a little bit eclectic. And I think that infects both the legal community and the day-to-day community, which is, you're almost looking at a market. When you look at a market like Orlando, there's only certain sectors that most of the large law firms are in. But when you look at a market like Tampa, look at who's coming into the market.
You see a lot of large international and national firms who weren't previously having a footprint either in Florida or Tampa specifically, who also may already have a footprint in a larger market like Miami. And they're still taking the time to open an office in Tampa. Now, that's number one because of people like Danielle and Ciara, right? The talent is just too good. You can't stay away. But it's also because I think there's a testament to what Tampa is becoming. It is not overburdened like Miami. It is not one dimensional.
And no offense, because I love Orlando. I was there for 10 years, like a market like Orlando. It's this kind of middle point. It's this hub where you get the best of both worlds. It's a larger, more eclectic city, but there's a lot of different people coming from a lot of different backgrounds. You see a lot of mom and pop restaurants. You kind of see these community ties between people. It's not so commercialized. And so you see that the day to day and legally, if you come to Tampa,
Speaker 1 (31:22.574)
there's any number of large service firms or boutique firms or specialized firms that all make a home base here in Tampa. And so I think that's pretty cool to see and it certainly offers a lot of breadth of potential opportunities or experiences when you come to somewhere like Stetson. And you don't have the traffic that you have in Miami either, right? So you get that kind of large legal market, you can get exposed to international and national experiences.
but still just have a 15 minute commute to work. And so that's what ironically kept me in Tampa and not moving back to Orlando.
That's great. And I think that's also a particularly useful perspective too for potential out-of-state students also who are interested in what it is about Stetson in general and what it is about Tampa Bay as well that really is kind of the draw that it has been for so many people. I'm curious to ask all of you. some of you were touching on this a little bit before, especially Matthew, when you were talking a little bit about, you know,
getting to meet some of the professors and getting to know the community at the place that you're going to be going to. But I'm curious just to ask, if you were to give at least one piece of advice to people who are applying to law school right now, what do you think it would be? What's most important to know about yourself or your interests when you're first deciding on law school and when you're first deciding on what field?
you want to go into because I know those are kind of big questions that people are wrestling with when they're when they're thinking about going to law school and also in their first couple years at law school when they're deciding like what am I going to specialize in? What am I going to do? So what advice would you give to people who are on their way into law school right now?
Speaker 2 (33:19.726)
I guess my advice would be to, for any prospective student to run their own race, right? So when I say that, mean that, you know, everyone has their own unique experiences, your likes or dislikes that are unique to you. Don't lose that just because you want to go to law school, right? You know, continue to foster those, you know, your interests and your likes and maybe new experiences that you have.
And I think a lot of times when you look at what a lawyer is, someone may say, okay, well, someone that, you know, always goes to court and I have to, you know, know how to argue and, and while that's great, but that may not be your path, right? You, you may be someone that's more in-house like me. provide advice and counsel. I draft a lot of policies. I'm kind of more of like the person that, you know, runs things, but I'm kind of like behind the scenes, right? I'm not the face person.
But I do a lot of work to impact a global corporation, right? So I think that is one of the advice I would give to people. It's okay to do something that no one else is doing, especially if that's something that you're really passionate about. I would tell students to try to get as many internships as you can and things that you're interested in and kind of figure out what you wanna hone into. I know for me,
Labor to employment, I thought it was just a great versatile field, right? You can work at a firm, you can work for government, you can work for a corporation, a private corporation, a public corporation, international corporation, right? It was just the variety to me was just endless, right? You can do so many different things within that field of law and do the things I like to do. I love to write, so right? So I write a lot of.
administrative policies, I write handbooks, I write position statements, right? I did litigate when I seven years at the assistant city attorney's office, but I knew my passion was writing and providing advice and counsel and learning nuances about different federal discrimination laws. I knew that that's what I like to do. So I just honed in on that. So whatever is that you find you're interested in, feel free to pursue that even if you don't necessarily know someone doing it.
Speaker 2 (35:44.778)
I mean, that's one of the great things about the Tampa Bay area is you will find a mentor in whatever it is that you're interested in.
To add on to that, think while staying true to yourself, also keep an open mind with where you're going, both for school and with jobs. As Danielle said, get.
a lot of internships and I would encourage internships where you do get to experience maybe other areas of law that you hadn't considered. There's so many different areas out there that I mean I had even in law school no idea about community association law and had I been really closed off to it I would have never ended up in something that actually suits me very well. So keeping an open mind trying different things law school it's a lot easier to switch around and get a little taste of different
types of law, taking one course here and trying an internship in this other area for one semester, it's a lot more difficult to do that once you're in practice without taking kind of a step back in your career and saying, okay, I'm going to start over and learn this area of law now. So trying to experience as much as you can as a law student is something I always recommend.
And then the other part to it, think keep an open mind. And I'd also say when you're looking at a job as well, the people, I know Matthew kind of talked about it earlier is honestly, you could work in an area of law. I've seen friends be at their dream type of job of law, but they hate the people they work with and they're miserable. And then they switched to an area of law where they're like, it's okay. But my boss and my support team are amazing.
Speaker 4 (37:27.788)
I'm loving it, I enjoy coming to work, I'm learning a lot. you know, so sometimes there's a give and take, people make a big difference and don't ignore that when you're interviewing or when you're making connections. Your classmates are gonna be people who you are also practicing with, whether at the same firm or in the same community, they refer you people, those friendships are people you turn to and celebrate all your milestones and go to with the problems you're facing and.
wondering, you know, hey, my job is doing this, is your job doing that? Like, what's normal? So like, you want to have good people that you're going to school with and working with. So I would just keep both those things in mind.
So this is always a difficult question, right? Because it's hard to give particularized advice without knowing who we're trying to reach or who it might help. But I still coach one of the advocacy teams at Stetson, the international arbitration team for the Willem C. Vist competition. And so I get this question all the time. You would think I'd be better rehearsed for it. But the best I've come up with is kind of a two prong approach.
And the first is I try to remind people, which sounds so obvious on its face, is that everything that you have experienced and accomplished in your life up until you start your journey in law school and as a practitioner still applies. I think the biggest thing that people forget, whether knowingly or not, is they think, now I'm in law school. So now I've got to be this lawyer thing, which is this person I've seen on television. And it's this completely different version of myself that I've got to become.
when in reality, the biggest assets that you're gonna have are in the field of law, your people skills, and working with your colleagues and with your clients, which are all things that were developed through your life experiences before law school, it's going to be your ability to communicate, it's going to be your ability to operate in an enterprise company or law firm. So all of those things combined, your life experiences before law school actually will help inform how to interact day to day,
Speaker 1 (39:34.796)
beyond the very niche subject that law school helps you become an expert in, which is just understanding law, being able to break down the law, being able to speak to it, and being able to persuasively advocate for any particular person's interests. And the other piece of that, besides not forgetting who you are, which by the way, in case anybody doesn't already realize, is your biggest asset as an attorney, right? They always tell people, you know, when you're trying to figure out what is your advocacy style or your writing style or things,
Everybody will have input, ultimately you're going to craft your own. And the only way you're going to be the most effective advocate, I don't care in any realm, internally or externally, is by finding where your style fits, which is something I tell my advocates on the international arbitration team all the time. You have to take the complex knowledge and topics that you're learning about and integrate it with your personal style that you've gained through life experiences. And so that's the first prong of what I typically tell people. The second prong being
Get involved, right? And it doesn't mean kill yourself, give up sleep type of get involved. It means at your leisure, at your ability, find some way to get involved. And it's not so much, I mean, yes, it's about getting the experiences and the knowledge, but it's really about too, just getting to know the community. I think that's lost on a lot of people. When you get to law school and you're thrown in a section with 300 people that you don't know, the prospect of getting to know each and every one of them is a little daunting, but it can pay in spades.
For just your general career trajectory, professional growth and life experience, which is you have no idea where these people are going to end up or what they're going to deal with. And those are going to be the people that you pull on, whether it's for picking somebody's brain or creating future client relationships or, you know, understanding the intricacies of a particular organization.
the people that you meet in law school ultimately will all springboard to large organizations, to judicial assistants for courts, to judges themselves given enough time, and to in-house counsel. And so I think the fact that Stetson highlights community so much, and yet some people forget about that aspect of it because we're so busy, right? You're busy studying for courses, you're busy studying for exams, you're busy with your internship and your externship and everything else, you lose sight of just
Speaker 1 (41:54.54)
Hey, you want to grab coffee at the cafe and just chat? How's life going? But those are the things that really will give you the biggest insight into, what are they doing that I'm not? Or what's their life experience that I can draw on? Or what's something I can learn from this person? And then it's that plus everything else in the future that you gain. I have Sierra as a friend. can call up.
because I have no idea what the heck I'm doing in homeowner association, which is not true, but for the purposes of the example. And she can tell me, Matt, you your client's got a problem. Here's what I would look at. Those are huge resources that were as simple as just chatting with someone on a break outside of class. So it's those two things, which is really just to say, don't don't lose sight of everything that you've been doing in your life until you got to law school. Law school teaches you a very narrow subject, which is becoming an expert in law.
but it can't possibly in three short years teach you everything else that you've accumulated through life lessons and personal experiences. And so leverage that, use that in conjunction with the specialized knowledge that you're learning in law school. And I think if you do those two things, you'll really embrace the community that is Stetson. You'll really understand what it means to be a well-rounded practitioner and you'll boost your reputation in a genuine way by driving true ties to the people who are ultimately becoming your community.
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And I can definitely see what you mean about how there's an inclination for people in graduate school in general, I would think, but also with law school probably in particular to think that you're sort of taking on the mantle of this new persona or this new professional identity that kind of has to, you're at least initially, I would think a lot of times people are so worried about meeting the standards of that profession that it's easy for it to kind of crowd out everything else about
their identity or about who they are or about the rest of their life. Whereas the goal, like you said, should be to integrate that and to realize that those are going to be exactly the same skills that they're drawing on throughout the rest of their life and in their professional career. And that this is just an additional layer that builds on top of it. So thank you so much, everybody. Are there any final comments or thoughts that you'd like to leave us with before we finish up for today?
Speaker 1 (44:06.796)
Final thoughts, know, for anybody listening to this podcast, it seems like a major decision. And the one thing I'll say is, you you can't put the dots together looking forward, but you just have to have faith and belief that come a couple years from now, the dots will fall into place looking back. so irrespective of what you choose to do, who you choose to become, what experiences you get involved with, trust that
If you're listening to that inner voice telling you what you're passionate about, what you like and what you want to do, those things will ultimately align to a place that you want to be. And I think when you're at the end of your undergraduate career thinking about life, that is a huge question mark for anybody, especially typically at the age that you're at. I don't care if you're first career or second career as far as coming into this. And don't put the pressure on yourself.
Just kind of take it as it comes take it one step at a time and things will fall into place That would be what I would say because I remember being I started undergraduate undeclared and then I randomly kind of decided for good reasons to be a lawyer and It all felt kind of new and unfamiliar and that was really scary and I'm here to tell you it did work out I'm doing okay, and I think it'll be the same for anybody else who's in my position now
Yeah, I would add on and say, you don't have to have it all figured out right now. Yeah, whether it's your first or your second career, it's a lot. You should be proud of yourself and how far you've already come. If you've just graduated undergrad, that's a huge accomplishment. You've gotten into law school. That's major. Congratulations. Take time to celebrate and enjoy that because not everyone does.
if it's your second career, mean, kudos to you. I do not know why you're doing that and I am very impressed. So be proud of yourselves. It feels like a big decision and it is, but I do believe that you usually end up where you're supposed to be. So enjoy this journey because it goes by really fast.
Speaker 4 (46:16.142)
And it's a season that is really, it seems stressful, but looking back on it, it was so enjoyable as well. All the friendships and learning new things and the experiences, and it really is a privilege and a joy to go through it, even if it doesn't always feel that way. So just try to enjoy this journey and celebrate each little step, even if it doesn't feel big. These are big things that are happening.
So please enjoy this time.
And I'll just say for my final thought for anyone that's considering law school or been admitted, like Ciara said, congratulations. You've made a huge step in your life. Just continue to be who you are. And then ultimately, when in doubt, reach out, right? We're here to help you in any way, or we will connect you with someone that will help you. Just take it one step at a time.
looks like whether it's your personal statement, whether it's an internship, whether it's meeting with someone just went in doubt, reach out.
Yeah, I'll add on, please feel free to reach out to me. You can find me on the Bush Ross website or the Florida Bar website under Ciara Willis. I'm happy to answer emails or hop on a phone call with anyone. I know plenty of people did it for me and I'm happy to do it for you.
Speaker 3 (47:46.466)
That's great. Well, thank you so much, everybody. I really appreciate you all being here.
Thank you for having us.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
This has been Real Cases. Thank you for listening. Check back for more episodes about an array of legal topics presented by the Stetson University College of Law. Learn more at stetson.edu.
Topics: Real Cases Podcast
