How do part-time law students juggle a family, a job, and law school all at once?
In this episode, we sit down with two strong advocates for Stetson Law’s part-time program, Dominique Alford-Raymond and Grace Moseley. Together we discuss the diversity, the resilience, and the uniquely strong community among members of Stetson’s part-time program.
Transcript:
Speaker 1 (00:00.718)
You're not getting people who just graduated college, you're getting seasoned professionals who have had a career, who have been through different challenges and can take those experiences and bring them to the classroom. We have these experiences that we can touch on. It's always so interesting in a part-time section because you'll have a student who was maybe a doctor before and can speak to med mal. You'll have a student, you we had someone who was a surgeon in my section.
We'll have people like Dominique who are paralegals or people like me who have experience in the political sector. And it just adds, I think, a bit more of an enriching experience.
This is Real Cases, a legal podcast presented by the Stetson University College of Law. We'll sit down with Stetson Law faculty and students to examine today's critical cases and debates in environmental, international, elder, and business law, plus the role of social justice in these fields. Join us as we open the case file. Episode 28, Part-time Students at Stetson. I'm Daniel O'Keefe, Master of English Literature from Indiana University.
Speaker 3 (01:07.852)
Today we're joined by Dominique Alfred Raymond, a current part-time student at Stetson slated to graduate in December 2024, and Grace Moseley, who graduated from the part-time program this May. Dominique is a Florida registered paralegal in the greater Tampa Bay area.
She's the vice president for the Calvin Kunzel Student Bar Association and the former SBA chair of mental health. Dominique was named Stetson University College of Law Leader of the Year for her contributions to the school and advocacy in the area of student health and wellness. She was also named a 2022 to 2023 Florida Law School Consortium on Racial Justice Fellow.
Grace Moseley is the Center Coordinator for Stetson Law's Center for Excellence in Higher Education Law and Policy, a position she began two years ago while she was still studying part-time. She was the president of the Part-Time Student Society, an SBA 1L representative, a Stetson ambassador, and a member of the Dispute Resolution Board.
Hi, Grace, Dominique, thank you both for being here. So a lot of part-time students decide to attend law school after they've been out of college for a few years, rather than going directly there from undergrad. So I'm curious to ask what your experiences were after college and what drew you to study at Stetson part-time.
I've been out of school for like a very long time, almost a decade. And I was a paralegal. I am a paralegal. I'm a Florida registered paralegal. And I always wanted to go to law school. That was the plan. And it just didn't work out for me. So I am a second career student. And I wanted to come back and actually fulfill that goal.
Speaker 1 (02:51.546)
I graduated undergrad in 2013 and attended law school in 2020. And I had originally taken the LSAT in 2016 for political reasons. I had seen some things in the news that I wasn't really excited about. And I felt like I needed to get a law degree to help other people and help protect the people around me. But then I took the LSAT, I did all right. And I found some other opportunities to get involved. I started working for the Florida legislature and doing some work there.
there. But then eventually I had a friend who informed me that she had gotten a full ride scholarship to Stetson. She's very bright. And I honestly got a little FOMO and I decided to apply that night and entered in the fall of 2020, which was interesting because it was in the heat, the midst, the height of COVID. So it was a really interesting time to start that endeavor.
Wow, that's a, in the annals of peer pressure, that's a good one. Or FOMO at least, right? Like deciding to go to law school because, yeah, a friend of mine did. Where am gonna go? That sounds I'm gonna go too. Wait a minute.
I'm fine.
How do you feel being out of school and working for several years shaped your perspective? Do you feel like it gives you a different view on the process than you would have had if you'd gone straight to law school from college?
Speaker 1 (04:14.316)
Yes, so there's definitely a noticeable difference, I would say, for the most part, in a part-time section and a full-time section. And there are some little issues with maturity. I started full-time with a nine to five, and now I'm actually working at Stetson. So I have a lot of schedule flexibility. So I'm taking a lot of classes with full-time students now. And generally speaking, they're wonderful, and they're so smart. And I've made so many friends in the full-time program, a lot of whom are younger than me, which is totally fine.
But then there'll also be some little moments that are a little surprising and it's just because they haven't had that experience. So some of them are still sort of developing their soft skills, trying to understand, you know, when it's appropriate to ask certain things, know, just things of that nature. And it's just one of those things where they haven't had the, I don't want to say real world experience because I don't want to diminish the experience that they have had, but.
They haven't had those difficult lessons that Dominique and I have probably had where, you know, we've had to have tough conversations with supervisors or people and kind of learn like what's appropriate, what's inappropriate. And then I've also noticed some professors really, I don't want to say that they take us more seriously, but they can speak to us a bit more on, you know, a direct level because again, we do have that experience. I think.
One of the main things I've noticed is boundaries. I've noticed we're a little bit more boundary conscious of our professors because we understand that, you know, they're working and the difficulties that can go into balancing a schedule and being a professor. And then I think what it really helps prepare us for is again, those soft skills. know, Dominique and I are both on the dispute resolution board. And I have to say out of my section, I believe only maybe one person that tried out did not make it.
You're not getting people who just graduated college, you're getting seasoned professionals who have had a career, who have been through different challenges and can take those experiences and bring them to the classroom. We have these experiences that we can touch on. It's always so interesting in a part-time section because you'll have a student who was maybe a doctor before and can speak to med mal. You'll have a student, you know, we had someone who was a surgeon in my section. We'll have people like Dominique who are paralegals or people like me who have
Speaker 1 (06:35.126)
experience in the political sector. And it just adds, I think, a bit more of an enriching experience. But again, that's not to diminish the experience of the full-timers. I think they're wonderful. I hang out with them. I like them. I enjoy my classes with them. It's just a very, it's just a little different. And I would also argue that the part-time cohorts are generally a little more tight-knit too, because we really have to depend on each other in a way that often the other students don't, you know.
We don't always have services available every night of the week on campus when you're coming here after the business office is closed and all these things. Sometimes you might need a friend to pick up a textbook for you if they live in St. Pete and you're in Tampa. If you have children or a job, you might be late to class, need someone's notes. And so it's a little bit more familial in that way, I would say. Less competitive.
So I've only functioned in the part-time cohort. I've only had, well, actually for the first time this semester, I'll have two classes with three Ls, which is a very out of body experience for me. And then last semester I had one class, a crum law class with one L and that was a very different experience. I love my part-time.
class. We have always sort of had this really unique, like Grace said, you have a bond with these people. You know them, you know their spouses, you know what they're going through. You know their background. Like she said, she had a doctor in our class. have a thoracic surgeon, Dr. Eddie Hong, in my class. And I have a financial president, know, Brian Deedy in my class.
I had two doctors in our class, Kiesha Soli is also a doctor of physical therapy. I have several paralegals including myself in my class. One of them is actually one of my best friends, Jennifer Kuramochi, who also was the only other part-timer for my cohort who tried out for dispute resolution and she won. And she's a member of the team. She's actually on the same team that I'm on, mediation. And it is such a
Speaker 2 (08:55.854)
feeling, experience, being a part-timer. At six o'clock at night, after working a nine to five, or in my case, an 8.30 to five, or an eight to four, you have to go straight from work to school several nights a week, whether it's on this campus or Tampa's campus. You don't have time, a lot of the time, to stop for food. You don't have time.
to run home and change your clothes. mean, for goodness sake, my, and I pick on him because he's so sweet and so handsome and so, and such a dad now. Brian Beatty has always worn a three-piece suit to cars. And when we see him in tennis shoes and shorts, we're like, whoa, what happened? Did you go to work today? What's going on? And all the time he's like, nah, I did my, you know, and it's.
You
Speaker 2 (09:51.626)
It's one of those things where it's just not uncommon to see us in our professional work clothes because we gotta go to work. We have a family to support. So you've formed such a strong, I would say that it's such a strong, unique bond. And like she said, not to diminish the full time, but keep in mind the full time is broken up into three sections sometimes.
The part time is just one. We're one section and for almost two years or two years or some cases three or the entire four, we're in the same class with the same people. I would say that if I had to do it all over again, even if it meant graduating a year early, well actually I'm graduating a semester earlier now, but graduating in three years,
I would do the same thing I've done. I could not have had a better law school experience. And that was made mostly by part-timers. And it was made wholly in combination of being in this part-time program, knowing these people, becoming lifelong, I call us trauma-bounded friends, and advocating for the development of a part-time program.
Ed Stetson that has a very robust future, something I've talked to the Dean about quite a bit in my capacity as vice president of part-time, just developing this program to have like vision and resources and a cafe that's open until nine o'clock. So we can get some hot food, you know, instead of, you know, such like Grace said, sometimes, you know, we'll have a group text.
going in our group and saying, hey, I'm going to stop by and get some food. You know, who wants, what do you want? Cash out me, Venmo me.
Speaker 3 (12:00.248)
Yeah.
I was going to add just yesterday, you I said I work here at Stetson. have an office. I'm very fortunate for that. I had a part-time student who comes in and I offer them, especially ones I'm mentoring, but really anybody, I offer them, you know, if you need the refrigerator, if you need the microwave, if you need to kind of drop stuff off here. She's a high school teacher, so she has a few hours to kill. And she came in, she had forgotten her food.
So I went up to my dorm and I grabbed her some frozen food and got her a dinner. Cause I know what that's like to forget your food and be stuck here all night. And it's hard to focus when you're hungry. So we really do look out for each other. And one thing I forgot to mention that Dominique pointed out is unlike the full-time students, we are together for usually at least three semesters, but often for people who keep a nine to five and don't have that work flexibility,
all the way straight through. whereas the full time, they get out of their section after one year. So after one year, they're kind of free to float about, they're meeting new people, they're in classes with three Ls, whatever. That's not often the case with part-time. So we develop a very close bond.
Are there other typical things that come up for part-time students in terms of managing work and studying at the same time? What do you think are some of the unique challenges for part-time students who are also working full-time at the same time? You began to touch on some of them just now, but I'm curious to hear more about that.
Speaker 2 (13:38.286)
This has actually been a majority of my work here at Stetson as far as practicing my advocacy skills in a real way. The biggest issue we have at Stetson overall, but I think particularly it affects part-timers in a unique way, is our food insecurity. I think that's a school-wide issue that I know ForFatGrace and I have.
been working really hard, Grace, very much so on the part-time side, me very much so on the part-time and full-time side. Yeah, we have a food pantry and it by and large gets stocked because of the work we do with Student Affairs, but we have a very long way to go, especially because of where the food pantry is located on campus. It's all the way on the other side of campus.
And all of our classes on the opposite side, part timers really don't have that time to run on the other side of campus, try to find something to eat, cook it, warm it up, whatever, and go back. The other issue that we've done, particularly with our work on the part-time committee, and we need to do a lot more work, is the managing of when our classes are scheduled at night.
after a while it starts to get, like Grace said, really grueling. You know, your first year, second year going to class until 10 o'clock at night, when it doesn't, it sucks, but it doesn't really hurt. When you hit that third year, and I can attest to this, last semester I said, this is the last class I'm going to have at 10 o'clock. I just can't do it. can't, I can't, it's hard to maintain that in the job at the same time.
And I think that's where you see part-timers starting to drop out. You see part-timers starting to slow down on their classes because they, you you can't, you can't, it's not maintainable for a lot of students to go to school that late. And just general accessibility to school resources.
Speaker 2 (15:51.594)
is really hard for part timers. Some of the offices stay open until six, but in all actuality, we need offices open until eight or nine. We need them open really on weekends. And that kind of goes into this vision I have for the part-time program in the future, developing an actual office of part-time study, having a director and
and administrative assistant and a person from the registrar's office is dedicated to part timers and financial aid and the business office. this office is open on the weekend. So students are able to come and say, and I don't know if you get this a lot, Grace, but I certainly get it every year. So, Dominique, what's up with this class schedule? Okay, what's wrong with it?
The class I want is not available at night. It's not even available on the weekend. It's not even available online. Well, what class is it? And it's not something super specific. It's something really basic like Will's Trust in the States. That is a bar class. It's you know, one at night. Or for me, you know, it's trial ad, which we now have, I will take that back. We now have several.
trial advocacy classes at night. will give them that, but it's sort of like fighting tooth and nail trying to get some of the resources. The cafe is not open at night. Even the little store is not open at night. Grace and I came together last semester during Student Health and Wellness Week, and it was the first part-time Student Health and Wellness Week where we were able to truly provide
five days of meals at night. We reserved those meals, we delivered those meals to the part-time classes, one L, one P, two P, three P. And it was the first time we were able to do it and wouldn't have been able to do it without two part-timers, myself and Grace, collaborating on that and knowing the unique issue of part-timers.
Speaker 1 (18:14.026)
Yeah, I completely agree with that. And I forgot to mention earlier, but I am the president of the Part-Time Student Society here. And this is an issue that I hear year after year is that students are hungry. And it's a little easier at the Tampa campus. There's some food available. There's a full kitchen. there's more options nearby. But at the Gulfport campus, there's a McDonald's. There's just not a lot that's easy and accessible that you can hit on your way into class.
and there's not a lot of time between your two classes to run out or to order something. So that's a huge challenge. And I have met, you know, with Canteen who provides our food and with our former interim dean. And, you know, we work together to actually extend some of those service hours one night a week because it is difficult. We have to ask someone to stay late those nights. But we work to work out a schedule so that at least there's an hour here and there.
but we still haven't quite gotten the food together. And that's something that I think is really important because even, you know, after I think five o'clock, the only food that you can find on campus is in the library and it's mostly snacks. It used to be that there wasn't any healthy offering. I'm pleased to say I went in there recently and saw some salads available for students, some wraps, which is great because before it had just been, you know, frozen pizza is that kind of thing.
And that's not really something that everyone can eat all the time, especially if they're vegetarian or if they're gluten-free. So we have some issues there and that's something we really need to address that's a challenge. As Dominique said, the schedule can also be a big challenge. Sometimes classes just aren't available. And that's something that we try to work on with professors on an individual basis because what it comes down to is does Stetson have a professor that is willing to teach at night, that's available to teach at night?
And a lot of them don't want to, and that's perfectly valid. But there are some who are open to some flexibility. For example, Professor Lake, who I work for, he teaches insurance. Insurance is obviously a huge area of the law. It's a big one. A lot of people want to do insurance law or are already working at insurance law firms. So we were able to convince him to offer a week long.
Speaker 1 (20:33.108)
online class that would cover insurance and give them two credits. And that ended up being successful and a lot of part-timers were able to attend. And so I think a lot of these things could be solved. It's just, there are some restrictions and it's not all necessarily on Stetson or really any university. The ABA has certain requirements in terms of how many hours you can take online.
how many have to be in person. And I think really the future of part-time needs to include a hybrid option for families, for working adults. And I really don't see any reason why it shouldn't. Yeah, you do get a lot from an in-classroom experience. It's true that having started law school in COVID and having online classes and having students in my cohort that I didn't even meet until our second year because they were fully online, some of the highest achieving students in my cohort.
were online the first year due to health reasons. And so I don't really understand why the ABA has those restrictions still. think America, the world really has proven that we can go online, but that's not something that Stetson can really change at this point. But yeah, just scheduling conflicts, access to services. We have to depend on each other a little bit more, I would say.
But other than that, the teachers that we do get, the professors who do choose to teach at night, some of them, in my opinion, are some of the most quality professors that we have here. And that's the good news is we do still have those. One other thing that I forgot to mention is, Stetson is, hold on, let me rephrase this.
A lot of the part-time cohort are non-traditional students, so they have families, they have jobs, they have things that are keeping them in certain areas. And Stetson and Cooley are, to my knowledge, the only two law schools in the central Florida region. So one of the things that I ran into with my cohort are there were people who lived in Orlando or in Ocala, two hours away at times. And so...
Speaker 1 (22:43.348)
they're there for those 10 PM classes and then they'd be getting in the car and driving home and getting home at around midnight. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And that's because they have a child who is in the school district there. Unlike a full-time student, they can't just move because they do have these other responsibilities and obligations that tie them to a certain area. And I will say we did lose a couple of students in my cohort because it just got to be too much for them and they had a good job and they realized it was too much.
That's a difficult one too, and I think that could also be resolved by making a more online component.
And that I think that also speaks to the quality education you receive at Stetson. You know, having so many students that drove from the East Coast, yeah, from the East Coast, so many students that even drove when they were closer to not just Barry, we had a student who decided who lived in the Miami-Dade area and didn't want to go to FIU, wanted to come to Stetson and wanted to come here because of our trial.
advocacy. She ended up actually staying in a dorm half the week and going back home half the week until it took her a couple of years before she was able to relocate her family and her children to central Florida and she has since graduated from Stetson. Stetson has such a wonderful part-time program, the best part-time program in
state of Florida. And if we want to continue to develop this program in a way that's beneficial to the school because we understand as working adults who understand the school's bottom line, we also need to make it more beneficial for the students. And I don't think that we can do one without the other. I actually think we have to start with making this program more flexible, more understandable, and more accessible to
Speaker 2 (24:48.162)
potential part-time students, particularly focusing on second career students, because that's where we are in the world, especially post-COVID. Education is more achievable now than it's ever been in this country, and we need to capitalize off of that. We also need to capitalize off the fact that we are a private institution that is not so easily swayed.
by the ways of the world. And at Stetson, you can find a place where you belong very easily in the part-time program, no matter where you are, where you come from, or what you feel or think. You're going to find your place here. And if the school can capitalize, for lack of a better word, capture that moment, I think we will develop.
probably the best part-time program in this country. I think we have everything that we need as far as the brick and mortar of this school. Certainly with the experienced professors. mean, Dr. K, Professor Lake, Professor Rozelle, don't get, know, Professor Jimenez, you don't get very, you know, you don't get better educators. That's for sure at this school. So we have that. All we need to do is build the program a little bit more. And I feel like
I mean, I feel like we'd have the best program in the entire country.
Yeah, you're both very strong advocates for the part-time program. And I'm curious to ask you to talk a little bit about what do you think are its most outstanding strengths, both for, like you said, in the Florida area, but also just nationally? What do you think are the things that really make Stetson's part-time program stand out?
Speaker 1 (26:37.806)
Well, Dominique mentioned this, but I think the dorms are a huge help. I know a student as well who does a half and half and stays when they have class. think that's a huge help for students is housing. And that's not just helpful for the part-time, but for the full-time as well. We have so much housing available. And with the cost of living in this area, that is a huge support to students. And that is something that makes Stetson very unique. Dominique and I compete. I don't know if she's had the opportunity to travel yet, but I've been to three or four different law schools now. And I have to say our facilities
are outstanding compared to most law schools I've been to. We have like a resort style pool, we have dorms, it's really a beautiful campus. And I think that's a huge help for people. There's a great library with a lot of study rooms, but those are all things that help everyone. I think that the thing that distinguishes our part-time program is the quality of our educators.
Dominique had mentioned Professor Lake and I'm gonna shout him out too just because I've worked with him now for three years. But he's told me he really likes the part-timers. He likes being able again to hear us with our experience to have us draw that in and finds that we're a little quicker to pick things up sometimes because we can relate it to our career or we might have someone else who has that career and can kind of contextualize things. And so some of them prefer.
actually working with part-time students. And these are not adjunct second rate professors. Professor Lake's been here for 30 years. I think he's maybe one of the oldest employees here, like in terms of all of his time here. He's a double Harvard grad. I just did a study abroad in the Cayman Islands with Professor Appleby, who is one of the nation's foremost experts in captive insurance companies. I also...
have worked with Professor Morrissey who was voted, you he does a lot of part-time. He did our contracts and he ended up teaching us Con Law because they couldn't find another part-time teacher who wanted to work at night. And the beauty of him is, I mean, he was professor of the year last year. He is, I believe, I'm gonna mess this up, but I know he's a double Ivy grad. I think Columbia and Yale maybe, I don't know. Some of those impressive schools. But the point, we have these,
Speaker 1 (28:57.118)
really incredible advocates who are coming here to teach. And in a lot of part-time programs, you are not getting that. You are getting adjuncts. You are getting new professors. And don't get me wrong, some adjuncts are incredible. And as a part-time student, and even as a full-time student, you are probably going to have some adjunct professors. And some of my greatest experiences have been with adjunct professors. However, you do want those tenured long-term professors who have built their network, who are
big names in their field who have those connections. And I think one of the greatest things about Stetson is that part-time students are not robbed of those experiences. We are given great professors and we're also given a lot of flexibility and opportunity to get involved. I again transitioned into a job that was more flexible for law school, but even while I was working, I had the opportunity to join the part-time student society, which I'm now the president of.
I was able to get involved in the center here. Stetson has four centers that concentrate on different areas of law. And now I work at this center. Dominique and I have been able to join dispute resolution. It meets every Monday from 12 p.m. to 1 p.m. But they don't want to leave us out of that experience. So they let part-time students join remotely. So there is this flexibility that they extend. And I think one of the greatest things is I've never heard of something
that a part-time student can't join. They're always willing to be flexible for part-time. The only thing I really feel like a lot of us miss out on in a big way is the free lunches that are occasionally on campus, this organization doing this for lunch, that organization. But they really try to make sure we can be as involved as we would like in as many activities as we would like.
So I'd like to ask both of you a little bit more about your own, what your own professional trajectories are. Grace, I know that you've worked a little bit in, you worked with the Florida legislature and you've also worked in education. And so I'm curious about what you're hoping to do with your JD once you've obtained it.
Speaker 1 (31:14.506)
Yeah, so this would be a great time to plug something that we don't get to talk about a lot, which are JD Advantage careers. So I got to law school and thought I wanted to do criminal law. And I still really love criminal law, to be fair. But I did come from a background of policy. And for the record, I was a legislative assistant. So I was doing a lot of research, more policy-based research. But it does have some overlap with legal research.
A lot of the members I worked with were on education committee. So I'd already built a bit of a solid base of knowledge in education. I also taught high school for a year. And this is kind of the fun of getting to know part-time students is you learn all these weird things that they've done and it's interesting. yeah, I got really fortunate. My first year I had professor Lake who I had mentioned a few times and I just really connected with him and I ended up volunteering at the center which is something that a lot of students do.
and he ended up offering me a fellowship. And I have transitioned into a part-time job here at Stetson as the center coordinator, which is great. And a lot of people don't realize that education law is a way that you can go, a direction that you can go. But there's all these regulatory laws that these colleges and universities have to abide by, Title IX, Title VII, there's all the Clery Act, FERPA.
All of these things are really important to get funding and even a private school like Stetson, we still get federal funding. We do, we get a lot of federal funding and we want that funding. So we have to make sure that we're abiding by these regulations and they are ever changing. They change usually with every new administration. So it takes people who are legally trained and have some knowledge about policy to do these roles. these roles don't necessarily require...
a license, you don't necessarily have to pass the bar to be, for example, Title IX Coordinator or to work in some of these areas in higher education. But having your JD can be a huge, huge advantage. And so one of the things I always tell students, because there's always a couple in every cohort who get through their first, maybe their second semester and think, what have I done? I have spent now...
Speaker 1 (33:32.94)
you know, $50,000 on tuition and books and all this. And I don't know that I want to work at a firm because there is a work life challenge issue at firms. And for a lot of us, especially in the part-time program, who are second career, we've been there, we've done that. You know, I put in some 70, 80 hour weeks at the legislature. I'll do it maybe once a year, but that, I don't want that to become my normal. So I decided early on that I would like to be more in an administrative role. So I'm hoping.
to maybe go get my PhD after Stetson. There is a program over at Vanderbilt. It's the number one in the country, but I think I have some good qualifications for it at this point. And it's a part-time program as well. And theirs is, I think, one weekend a month that you attend and you can get your PhD in higher education administration. So I'd really like to maybe become, know, jokes aside, someone who could be a part-time dean.
for a school or a Dean of Students because I am passionate about seeing how we can benefit students. And this is something that I think is an issue at all schools, because I've also worked at the University of South Florida. My aunt works at Eckerd and I run a conference. I meet people from all over the country at different institutions. So this is not just a Stetson issue, but...
there is an issue where there are silos in higher education and there are all these barriers that pop up and there's just no reason for them. Just little things that make it harder for students to graduate because people aren't communicating properly. People, you know, aren't setting up their offices in the right way where it's easy for students to navigate. And so I really want to help different institutions figure that out so that we can have higher grad rates so that we don't have students that are dropping out for things that we could easily solve if we knew.
These are all things that I care a lot about. So that's kind of my goal right now is to get a job at an institution and go right back to school.
Speaker 3 (35:33.812)
It's interesting what you were saying. feel like that issue of the siloing of different topics and issues within higher education is definitely very much a thing. And it's remarkable too, in light of the fact that there's so much ostensible commitment to interdisciplinary work and interdisciplinary research. But I think when it, like you said, probably when it comes to a lot of administrative issues and all sorts of other possible things that.
there is a tendency to view these things within very distinct boxes without there being a lot of communication between them.
Yeah, it's a weird issue and I'm sure it doesn't just apply to higher education, but it's something that I've seen at most universities and really the bigger they get sometimes the bigger the problem can be when they have multiple campuses, etc. So I don't want to say that that's Stetson issue. It's just something that
you have to be aware of in combat and higher education because these are big campuses. mean, there's hundreds of employees at these schools. And that's another thing that I love about higher education is there are so many opportunities. There's so many departments. There's so much upward mobility. And for most of it, you don't really even need your license. For example, and I believe she is licensed, but the president of USF, the current president, she...
has an undergraduate degree from the University of South Florida and a law degree from Stetson and that's it. And she's the president of, I think Florida's biggest university system. So there are so many opportunities in higher education. And if that's not someone's thing and they're listening to this regulatory law all over every agency, the Florida legislature, they all need legal analysts. They need policy analysts. I used to be a policy analyst as well.
Speaker 1 (37:17.026)
They do all kinds of really law adjacent work. And it's a really great thing for especially part-time students to do because you do have the benefits that come with being a public employee. You often get tuition forgiveness or I'm sorry, student loan forgiveness because you're working in the public sector. So that's a really huge benefit. And then, you might be sacrificing a little bit of potential income, right? But you're gaining.
time off that you can spend with your family. You're gaining a work-life balance. You're gaining, you know, you don't have to do billable hours, which is how you get trapped in this work cycle. You know, you have a nine-five, you go home, you get good vacation time. The benefits are outstanding. So I just want to encourage anyone who entered law school and is really kind of panicking that it's okay, get your JD. There's so many opportunities out there, even if the...
practice of law isn't for you, that doesn't mean that the study of law is not for you. So just hang in there and come to the Higher Ed Center and we'll hook you up.
Speaker 2 (38:24.302)
So I've been working in elder law for quite a long time. And I think when people hear that they automatically think that I want to stay in elder law and handle probates and will stress. And I love that work. I love working with people. I we call them hand holding. I love hand holding clients, but I think it's because I love hand holding clients so much that I've decided to be a mediator.
Being on the dispute resolution team was a big goal of mine and one that I've been able to really flourish personally. I love scrimmaging with the arbitration team. I love being on the national mediation team competing this spring. And I love everything about alternative dispute resolution. So my big goal after law school is to go work.
for a firm that will allow me to mediate. I have a background also in being a legal assistant for a quite large personal injury firm. And I really did not enjoy it all. So I think having, you know, had that experience and also seeing that there were not a lot
of mediators of color, there are not a lot of arbitrators of color. It's just not one of those areas that a lot of BIPOC people practice for really good reason, obviously. This is something that BALSA, in my time being here at Stetson, especially with our past president, Deja Gordon and Logan Jackson, we wanted and we want
BIPOC community to go to the trial teams, go try out for dispute resolution. We need arbitration attorneys of color. We need mediators of color. You get such a different experience having someone with a different cultural background, especially cultural backgrounds that are not easily understood and nuances of things such as
Speaker 2 (40:43.598)
poverty and food disparity, which we've touched on a couple of times here. Education disparity is so large in America. You literally have a group of people that are either exceptionally educated and have JDs and PhDs and MDs. And then you have people, such a large group of people that
barely made it through high school or didn't make it at all. There's not a lot of in-between where there are people who maybe just got a four-year degree and they were able to actually do something in that realm. That's very rare. It's very hard. And not having that middle ground in our society is really, really affecting our legal practices.
not being able to have that connection because maybe you did not come from an underserved community. Maybe you were a person of privilege. So how could you understand the goal of a client in a way that is effective? I mean, this is something that we talk about a lot in our pre-trial federal focused class with Professor Sheehan or Coach Sheehan. If you're like me and Grace, you've had them on the resolution board.
But Professor James Sheehan, I think, is probably one of the best negotiators I've ever met in my entire life. One of the biggest things, which all lawyers say technically, is, it depends. It depends on this. It depends on that. The skill here is connecting the in-between. It's connecting the client goal with a legal
reward. You you have to have some form of connection in between the two. And it takes a very special person to sit in the gap and say, I understand your goal. I understand why I understand why that's important to you. But I also know that you need a remedy and it has to be a remedy that works. And it has to be a remedy that goes around all these really complex legal rules and being in dispute resolution allows
Speaker 2 (43:10.542)
me the opportunity to come up with these very creative way to really focus that, you know, focus those goals and those remedies and bring them together. That's fulfilling for the client because that's the whole point of me being here as a mediator or even being an arbitration attorney in front of an arbitrator, trying to get the arbitrator or the arbitration board to understand exactly why this is important.
And I think it's a very easy argument to say, well, that's what all lawyers do. You're right. But some lawyers aren't good at it because some lawyers are, I think, and this is the problem. We're always focusing on the remedy. Constantly. You know, what can we get? What are we supposed to get? What? And sometimes we got to take a step back. You know, it's easy to tell a client that only has a home that is beat up.
and they are in a situation where they are being, they're having a deed issue. One person says that the deed is bad, one person said that the deed is good, and it's a little old person. And let's say this is a little old person of color who barely speaks English. As an attorney, I think it's very easy to say, look, this house is raggedy, okay?
It's going to cost you a lot in taxes. This may not be, this probably is not the best choice for you. What if we get you in subsidized housing? What if we get you into ALS because you're older or maybe go live with a relative that actually owns their home? Those are all great solutions. There's nothing wrong with those. Those sound pretty good. As a mediator, an attorney, I can say,
tell me why this is important to you. And they tell me this house was owned by my great grandmother and has been in my family for several generations. And I feel like I would fail. This home is the center of my family for so many years. My child was born in this house. Home ownership is not easy in BIPOC communities. It's something that just very rarely happens. So being able to own that home and being able to have that background.
Speaker 2 (45:34.686)
I can make a valid argument in saying, well, let's look at the legal, let's see what actually happened with the deeds. Let's go back, figure it out. But I'm going to fight 10 times harder to come to a solution for you because I understand that owning that home, no matter how raggedy or torn down it is, is probably the single biggest accomplishment in that family's history. And holding on to it.
No matter what the other creative solutions are, and there are many creative solutions, having that home does not put a burden on our already very birth governmental ALF system and subsidized housing system. Subsidized housing takes many years to actually get. We would not be able to get that client into subsidized housing tomorrow or next week or next month or next year. It may take several years.
They may not have a family member that can carry another person in that house. And if they do, maybe they can't stay there that long. Nothing's wrong with either way. know, nothing's wrong with how those solutions were presented. They're both valid arguments. They would both lead to a client solution. But being a mediator and being an arbitration attorney allows me the opportunity to, I feel,
for people because litigation is expensive and we don't have, a lot of people don't have the money to go into litigation and afford a litigator, especially a good one. So that's kind of where my fuel comes from. And no, I may not be like Grace, I may not be changing policy and running universities and I may not have a prestigious position one day. I can say that I know someone who does.
But in my practice and in my advocacy, because that's what it is. This this is Stetson advocacy in the community. And I've met so many Stetson advocates. Pai Young from Bay Area Legal Services, who's the director, Jamaican immigrant. My husband's Jamaican immigrant and they were actually high school friends. Go bogey. And she went to Stetson.
Speaker 2 (47:59.558)
And she is the director of Bay Area Legal Services here in St. Petersburg. And she changes lives every single day. And she does it in such an impactful way. And I think that that is the heart of Assessor's Hatter, honestly. That is what we come here to do. We come here to find our own way to change the world and whether we're going to do it through higher education or whether we're going to do it through mediating or working for pro bono or
I think we have two of the Morgan sons that are the largest personal injury law firm in the world. According to their millions of billboards that we see all over the place. I think we're making changes.
Grace, you tell us a little bit also about the study abroad that you said that you did recently?
Yes. So over the winter break, I went to the Cayman Islands with some of my classmates for a study abroad program we left on Christmas day, which was kind of crazy, but really exciting. And it was nearly two weeks. I want to say it was like 13 days. But the way that it works, and I'm glad you asked, because this is something that a lot of part-time students do.
because you can get up to two or three credits and go somewhere and financial aid actually will cover your study abroad. You can apply for financial aid. And I don't think a lot of students know that, but you can actually apply and they will give you, they will cover the cost of your plane ticket, your tuition and a stipend so that you have money to spend while you're there. Cause that can be an issue.
Speaker 1 (49:44.684)
and you are welcome to bring your family. They're welcome to come if you let them know ahead of time. It might affect the cost a little bit if they're staying with you you need like private accommodations, but it's a really great experience. The way that it worked for us is we had one week where we would travel every day to a local law school in Grand Cayman and we studied offshore business planning.
And it's very funny. The first thing that you'll learn once you start going to all the financial sectors there is that they don't use tax haven there. That is very offensive. are tax neutral. We got that really drilled in tax neutral, tax neutral, but yeah, it was really great. And then the second week we learned international sales arbitration, which I actually had the privilege of taking here at Stetson as well, which is a really interesting class that I think is one of a kind where you kind of go through an entire
arbitration process, you write a memo, you do the whole thing. So it was kind of an abbreviated version of that. So you do one class one week, one class the following week, and you do have a lot of downtime. We had a lot of time to explore, to make friends. And one of the really cool things about the program is that we also work with some other law schools in the South. So we had three students from Mercer in Macon, Georgia, who
attended and I ended up becoming really close friends with them. I'm in touch with them. I adore them. One of them is actually competing in a trial competition here in a couple of weeks. I'm looking forward to seeing him again. But yeah, it was a really excellent experience. You get to know your professors better and get these kind of once in a lifetime opportunities to really learn something on the ground floor. We got to meet the first ever woman.
who was ever in charge of the judiciary in Grand Cayman. She is in charge of She's basically like their version of a Supreme Court justice. So she is a big deal, top of the whole coop in their legal system, first woman ever. And so we got to have a bit of a lecture from her. She also used to be a model. So we took some pictures and she was posing us all around. She's very cool. But a very fierce woman,
Speaker 1 (51:59.626)
She's very interesting, has a lot of thoughts on Delaware. That's the real tax haven. That's what we. But yeah, it was a really great experience, really unique. You get to really get to see everything firsthand. We have some other programs that I can plug. I know there's one in the spring in Cuba. I know they also do an Oxford program where you do comparative dispute resolution. I think it's arbitration specifically. So you kind of learn how they do it over there, how they do it here.
And a lot of people do that one. And then I know that there is a big international one at The Hague. So I really, you and I wish I had known about the financial aid earlier because as much as I love taxes, I don't. Like tax law. mean, I would have probably chosen a different program to study, but the experience itself was invaluable. I think students should definitely take that opportunity if they can, especially if like me, they plan on doing a job in the public sector.
where there's loan forgiveness available because they are a little pricey, but if you can rely on some financial aid and whatnot, it is a really fantastic experience. You really get to know your classmates. And I think it's also really great for part-time for that reason, because we do, we kind of touched on this earlier, but we do miss out on some of those social experiences. We do miss out on meeting some of the full-time students. And this is a really nice way to kind of integrate. And it can also double as a family trip for students.
And most people bring their significant other or their spouse, their kids. And it's a really great time.
I'll be attending the Oxford trip for comparative advocacy next summer and I am so excited. There are several part-time students that are also going with me. It's two weeks and it's in the United Kingdom and I am exceptionally excited about it. cannot wait.
Speaker 1 (53:57.378)
Are you bringing family with you?
My sister, my best friend, I call her my sister, she is going with me. She's actually, she's Irish. So she's actually been over there several times and she's staying the entire time with me. And then my husband will join right at the end. And he lived in the UK for a while. So he's kind of grumpy about it, but he's like, British. As a person who had Dr. K, like I get it.
He's very scary. Wonderful professor. So yeah, it's going to double as a family trip for us. And I cannot wait. And I get to study comparative advocacy, like in the heart of it all. Like, I really encourage part-time students, take advantage of some of these trips, the going to the Cayman Island. So many part-timers went. It was so crazy to see how many part-timers.
And not just like three P's or four P's. mean, two P's were there. Some three P's and two P's and four P's were all there. And that's like, I've never seen so many part-time students in a study abroad before. And I think that's something that we are really advocating for. We really need to take advantage of some of these opportunities because we all need a break. And I mean, yes, we're still studying, but like,
You're having a lot of fun. We were out of class at 12 almost every day. We had some field trips that took cut into our time a bit and some things that ran a little long. There was one day where this guy, he just kept going. He was about an hour over his presentation. We're all looking at the sun, you know, go and work. Come on, man. Like we.
Speaker 1 (55:49.848)
Please let us go. for the most part, you have plenty of time and so many opportunities. And then just to touch on it, because we didn't, I don't think, mentioned this, but for part-time students, another benefit are weekend classes. So I encourage any part-time students to really, like Dominique said, go on these trips, but also take advantage of weekend classes. Dominique and I had one of my favorite classes I've ever taken at Stetson, honestly. I encourage everyone to take this, is the options trading class.
It's fascinating. It's so good. You learn so much about the stock market, stock regulation options. And I loved it. was like, I, this is why I took tax law and started getting into the financial stuff, which isn't for me, but options might be. I loved it so much. And, and they're fun. You go for a weekend. Usually they are pass fail. Most of the time they do not have final exams and you get a credit. So like one semester I did three weekend classes and it would have been the same as me going to a class every day.
or two days a week, you know, a full class. So one thing that part-time students do, I think, differently than full-time students is we take a lot more advantage of these weekend classes, of these study abroads, just because we, it helps us graduate a little bit earlier and it takes a lot of the stress off of us when it comes to like a final exam. A lot of them don't have final exams or if they do, you know, it's just a pass fail thing. So it's a lot less pressure.
I will say in the Caymans, we did have final exams and they are on a four-oh scale, so be aware. That being said, there are single credit each. So it's like, if you don't do too great, it's not really gonna affect your GPA, but you still get the credit. So you gotta be strategic on your part-time and really think about how you can get those hours and those credits.
Grace is, Grace loved the weekend course that we had because she was one of the best traders in the class and she was very aggressive. I lost it all. I mean, I think you didn't end up losing it all, but, and the professor who teaches that class is one of our wonderful adjunct professors here who used to be a trader now where it's for FINRA. So as a regulator, so it was.
Speaker 2 (58:02.422)
I mean, honestly, also, my husband does some training and I brought my husband in for one of the days in the class. And that was also really fascinating. And the professor was so nice about it. But yeah, don't let grace fool you. She did exceptionally well as a weekend part-time trader. And that class is also full of part-time students. So like she said, you have to be strategic, but there are some opportunities to have some really great.
you know, weekend classes with some really, Professor Quarantino, Dr. Levine, who also is an attorney, a doctor, MD, and also went through the part-time program. And he teaches that class, MedMal, yep, I took that weekend class. He teaches that class with Mr. Quarantino.
of Caranteno's holiday. And again, we're talking about real practitioners who've been doing this. And I'm sorry, I took the deposing medical expert class. And yeah, and Dr. Levine was the medical expert, which was fitting. He came in his medical garb and he was intimidating. And that feels about right.
How smart, like honestly, you had to get an MD and a JD. You couldn't pick one. Some people are just too smart.
And he's a pirate and he's a pirate and it was the weekend of pride and it was so funny because I was like looking at the clock I was like okay we all gotta you know I'm I'm Marsha the lamb this I'm like and he's like okay I am coming and my pirate because yeah he's on a crew I'm coming on my pirate guard we're probably gonna get out an hour early so we're gonna have to run it pretty hard and everyone's like fine it's like Saturday you know so it's he's so wonderful
Speaker 2 (59:58.936)
We have so many part-timers that come back and are adjunct professors. And I love that for us. Steven Hitchcock, who you see my former employer, he is a graduate of the part-time program and he teaches here and he runs his own business. So, I mean, so many great opportunities, man.
Well, on that note, thank you both so much for being here. I really appreciate it.
Thank you. Thank you. It was an honor to be asked to be on the podcast and we, Dominique and I, we love talking about part-time. think the school knows that we're really passionate about it and we just want to see the program continue to grow and serve new students and our existing students and just make it more robust just to make sure that they all have, their own home here at Stetson and their own community. So thanks for giving us that chance to talk about it.
Absolutely.
Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much. I think we both are looking forward to a lot of success in the part time program with our future students. And it has definitely been an honor of a lifetime to serve in several capacities at the school for Grace and I that allow us to advocate for this program because, like I said, it is one of the best part time programs in the country. I think it is the best part time program in the state. And I cannot wait to see.
Speaker 2 (01:01:22.242)
how this program develops and be very active as an alum of Stetson University College of Law.
Well, thanks so much.
Thank you guys!
This has been Real Cases. Thank you for listening. Check back for more episodes about an array of legal topics presented by the Stetson University College of Law. Learn more at stetson.edu.
Topics: Real Cases Podcast
