They say you should treat law school like a full-time job. But what does that really mean in practice, and how do you get the most out of your first year?
In this episode, we sit down with Assistant Professor Erin Okuno, who both teaches at Stetson Law and graduated from the school in 2013, and John Stafford, who’s now a second-year student at Stetson. We discuss the most common challenges students face in their first year at law school, ways the environment for new grads has changed in the last decade, and how Stetson’s uniquely collaborative environment sets students up for success.
Transcript:
Speaker 2 (00:02.968)
People who make it to law school right there, smart, accomplished people. And they have excelled in their previous educational and professional experiences. But law school takes a lot of time and a lot more time than I think most students realize, especially at the very beginning. Something that seems like, this case is only 10 pages long, right? That should only take me 10, 15 minutes to get through.
No, right? Like that might take you hours to get through and that's okay, but you need to recognize that it is going to take a lot more time. And so you have to figure out again, going back to what I said before, what works for you. So come up with a calendaring system if you don't already have one in place, because you are going to have a lot of things that you have to read, right? To submit meetings, you'll have to attend the classes. You have to attend other things going on in life that you have to keep track of.
Episode 33, Making the Most out of Your First Year at Law School. I'm Daniel O'Keefe, Master of English Literature from Indiana University. Today we're joined by Assistant Professor Erin Okuno and current Stetson Law student John Stafford. A Stetson Law alum, Professor Okuno graduated at the top of her class in 2013 and received the Edward D. Forman Most Distinguished Student Award. She was Editor-in-Chief of Stetson Law Review and a member of Stetson Law's award-winning Moot Court Board.
Her teaching and scholarship interests include legal research and writing, animal law, and environmental law, about which she has written, lectured, and presented extensively, particularly on the topics of wetlands and wildlife protection. John Stafford is a second-year JD candidate at Stetson. Recently, he worked as a part-time law clerk at Tilden and Prohidney PL and as a community fellow at the Community Foundation Tampa Bay.
Well, thank you both for being here today. I'd like to start by asking you both to introduce yourselves.
Speaker 2 (02:04.43)
Sure, thanks. Thanks for having me. My name is Erin Okuno. I am an assistant professor of law at Stetson Law. I also am a proud Stetson Law alum. And I used to work at Stetson Law in the Institute for Biodiversity Law and Policy. I have taught for several years at different undergraduate
institutions and at a couple of different law schools. Most recently, I was at the University of Miami School of Law and now I am happy to be back at Stetson.
And John.
Thanks for having me as well. My name is John Stafford. I'm originally from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania area, and I went to Penn State. So I've been in Pennsylvania all my life and I decided when I wanted to go to law school, I really wanted to change it up. I knew I wanted to go more into the advocacy role. was interested in litigation. So Stetson really was on the radar for advocacy and I applied and I was very fortunate to get in and now I'm here and I love it.
I'd like to start by asking you both a little bit about what led you both to Stetson. Professor, were a, so you graduated from Stetson in 2013, is that right? And John also you're from Pittsburgh, which is, you know, a little ways away from Stetson. So I'm kind of curious to find out about, in both your cases, what brought you to Stetson.
Speaker 2 (03:23.288)
Correct.
Speaker 1 (03:35.712)
It's kind of a crazy story because I feel like I never saw myself going outside of Pennsylvania. I loved Penn State as an undergrad and I actually applied to go to Penn State Law. And for the longest time, I just thought, okay, that's where I'll go. I'll stay in the same place. I'm familiar. I really like it. But there was just this part of me that said, what else is out there? And I didn't want to second, for rest of my life, second guess thinking.
Would I have liked to go somewhere else? Would I have known if there's something more out there? So I have family in Florida and they told me to check out Stetson. So I went, I set up a tour. I talked to the admissions team and they were all just, they were really great. And actually it reminded me a lot of Penn State. I feel like the reason I loved Penn State was the faculty really felt like they really wanted to support you. It felt like a family. It felt like a community.
Penn State's really known for their alumni base and now Stetson Law is very known for their alumni base. So a lot of it mirrored in that sense, even though they're so many miles apart, there's a lot of similarities. And I think it came down to, I think I would regret so much if I didn't try this new experience. So I took a gap year. worked for a nonprofit for a gap year. And then I decided
I wanted to take that leap of faith and I came to Stetson and I just loved it. I instantly fell in love with the professors were really great. mean, before even I was a student, professors would reach out, they talked to you on campus and other students were reaching out, talking to you. And I just felt like everything just felt right. And when I ultimately decided to come, it definitely was the right decision.
That's great. What was the nonprofit that you worked for?
Speaker 1 (05:23.16)
So in my hometown, outside of Pittsburgh, I'm in Greensburg, Pennsylvania. We have a community development corporation. And so it's a nonprofit, but we really work a lot with the city on revitalization efforts. And I had interned there when I was attending Penn State. And when I graduated, I was very fortunate that the executive director at the time, she got a job to go work with the superintendent of the school district.
And she asked if I would fill in as the interim executive director. She knew I wanted to go to law school, but I was leaning towards taking a gap year. So it was kind of perfect. I filled in, I was only supposed to do it for a couple months, but I said it's day on until I went to law school. So I got to serve as the executive director. It was really fun role. mean, the Pittsburgh area is kind of, you know, known for that Rust Belt area. So there's a lot of...
public projects into, what are we now? Now that like the steel mills are kind of shut down, we don't have that many factories. How can you repurpose these areas? So was really fun conversations with that. We'd meet with people in Pittsburgh all the time doing new, innovative things, taking factory buildings and turning them into like artisans, shops. It was one of the coolest jobs I've ever had. I loved it. I really loved it. So that was...
really hard to walk away from that, but I've known, I felt like I've always wanted to go to law school. So I felt like if I didn't go to law school, I was very happy where I was. But I ultimately decided that I did want to go to law school. so again, a lot of hard decisions, but I'm very happy with my decision. I feel like Stetson has really shown me that I'm very happy with my decisions. I loved my almost full year. I'm getting towards the end. I've loved every second of it.
That sounds like some great experience that you got also managing to be the interim director for a while. That's quite an accomplishment right out of college.
Speaker 1 (07:24.28)
Yeah, it was tough. It was scary. since we were in such a transition, my first couple of weeks was, I don't know exactly what you're supposed to do, but here's your office. But I was fortunate, my supervisor, her name was Ashley, she was the one who went to go work for the superintendent. She was a great friend of mine and she would come in on her lunch break and be like, okay, I'm gonna do a little breakdown of what you need to do.
I learned, I learned through myself, through her. It was definitely a learning curve, but I think, I think it's prepared me in law school in so many ways. I think if I didn't do that, I would not have been as prepared for law school, just to be uncomfortable with not knowing what to do, but, you know, working with the tools you have to figure that out, that's such a universal skill. I feel like I see how it translates into law school.
And Professor, how about you? What brought you to Stetson?
So by way of background, I went to Georgia Tech for undergrad and I had originally planned on going to med school. So I went the pre-med route through undergrad. And then I think somewhere around my last semester there realized that was perhaps not the right path for me. And I had a couple of electives left. So I took a couple of pre-law courses and really enjoyed them. Didn't think
too much of it at the time. I worked after I graduated from Georgia Tech and then I moved to Orlando and I realized somewhere sort of the tail end of living in Georgia and as I was moving that I really wanted to go to law school. I actually had never planned on practicing. That wasn't my goal.
Speaker 2 (09:21.256)
knew though that law school would open a lot of doors for me and give me some flexibility in whatever sort of career path I picked moving forward. I was really interested in doing environmental law and policy work in some capacity. So I moved to Florida and I was hoping to be able to make my law school move sort of coincide with living in Florida. And
I have to say, sort of agree with John, the people really, really sold me on Stetson. I I knew it was a great law school. It checked all the boxes in terms of the types of courses and things I was looking for. But I actually remember when I visited it for the first time, was, I don't know, I don't even remember what time of year it was, but there weren't a lot of people around. And I just remember,
even though I only saw a couple of people the whole time I was there, right? They were just so nice and had no reason to go out of their way to help me, but did so. And in particular, I want to give a huge, huge shout out to Darren Kettles. I not infrequently tell people that Darren is probably the main reason that I ended up at Stetson. He is just fantastic. he really, I mean, he's just a great representative, right? In terms of
Stetson as a community and the people who go to school at Stetson and work at Stetson and make it the really special place that it is. so meeting him and meeting a few other people along the way, it was an instant, instant sell for me. I knew that that was, I knew that it was the right place and I agree. sort of, never look back. I think it was one of the best decisions I ever made.
I'm curious to ask you, so you said that you had a sense before you went to law school that you didn't think you really wanted to practice law, but that you knew that it would open up a lot of doors for you. I'm curious a little bit about what that experience was like, because I think a lot of people kind of find themselves in that area, it might mean that their path through law school or going to law school is a little bit less clear for them. So I'm curious to ask you about what you were thinking at the time.
Speaker 2 (11:47.434)
Yeah, I knew that I wanted to do something related to environmental law and policy, maybe in the nonprofit space at some point. And although I didn't want to go into practice in any sort traditional sense, I thought that having a law degree would make me a stronger advocate and make me
I think better able to address some of the issues I was concerned about and pursue the types of positions and perhaps set myself apart in the types of positions I was interested in. As it turns out, right, I did end up practicing. I had a wonderful experience at a great firm in Tampa doing so. But originally, yeah, my path was unclear to me.
I wasn't really sure where that was going to lead, but I had really great mentors and resources at Stetson along the way. And although my path has been anything but sort of straight and short, it has been long and winding. I really ended up exactly where I wanted to be. So yeah, I would just encourage people, even if you...
don't think, I don't ever want to be in a courtroom, right? Or I don't ever want to be a transactional attorney. That's okay. There are still so many opportunities for you, whether you want to go into some sort of business position or you want to do nonprofit work or I really think the types of skills you learn at law school and specifically at Stetson, right? Will prepare you for whatever.
you decide you want to tackle after law school, even if it isn't sort of following a traditional career path.
Speaker 3 (13:45.45)
John, I apologize if you said earlier, you might've said it briefly, but I forgot. What did you major in when you were in undergrad?
as a political science major.
Okay, and I'm curious about what so what led you from political science to law school. Did you know that you wanted to go to law school when you majored in political science or did that sort of develop while you were an undergrad?
I think when I first started off, I had an interest in politics and I found out I kind of hate politics. I never wanted to work in politics. You when I was working with the city a lot, I mean, you had to face it. would be, you know, we'd have to get approval for certain projects from state government, from city government, and there was politics involved. And it's definitely a challenge and it's frustrating to work with politics. But as a study, I love the study of political science.
when you're sitting and you're learning about it, it's one thing, but to be in actually practicing the world of how politicians interact with the government, interact with their voters, it's very, it's very frustrating. It's not for me, but I feel like politics walks a lot of hand in hand with law. And so I was lucky as political science at Penn State, there was a lot of classes that were politics and law related. So there was a lot of
Speaker 1 (15:03.992)
constitutional law. I took a little bit of criminal justice classes to learn about like the legal system, sentencing, how that works for criminal defendants. And I think I fell in love with that area. And I feel like political science was able to expose me a little bit to that area. But I do not want to work in politics I'm older though.
And yeah, Professor Okuno, what led you from pre-med to the law?
Speaker 2 (15:39.48)
I think part of it was the courses that I took toward the end of my time at undergrad. I don't know that I had ever really thought about law as law or law school, law as a career or law school as a path that I would follow because I was very set on going to med school. And when I changed my mind about that or maybe sort of realized that wasn't the best fit for me.
I decided I should just take some different courses and explore what might be interesting to me. And I enjoyed those courses. And then when I started thinking over the next couple of years as I was working about what I wanted to do long-term and sort of how my mind works and the types of things I wanted to accomplish, I realized law and law school
sort of the natural fit in terms of achieving what I wanted to achieve and taking a next step. I also should note, I just really love learning. And so the opportunity to go back to school was really enticing and I was very excited about the chance, about having the chance to be able to continue my education. So.
I think just maybe the educational piece in and of itself was a big draw as well, not even sort of looking ahead to sort of career paths, just the learning aspect of it was a huge draw.
I definitely get that. Yeah, I frequently have that feeling. There's almost no profession or discipline I can hear about without thinking like, huh, wonder what it's like to study that. So as someone who attended Stetson yourself and who now teaches there, I'm curious to know, Professor, a little bit about how...
Speaker 1 (17:29.847)
you
Speaker 3 (17:43.69)
Stetson has changed over the course of the last decade and a little bit also about how the the general Legal environment has changed or the the law school environment. Well, what has changed about? the experiences of new students who are coming into Stetson now
I think I'll actually start with the last part of your question. Sure. Yeah. I entered and graduated from law school during a really challenging time period when I think I don't have statistics, right? But I'm pretty sure that it was more difficult to get a position and sort of the job options were a little less certain back then.
I feel now as though, I don't know that there are more opportunities numerically, right? But I feel as though job security is, at least in the legal profession, is maybe a little less of an issue now than it was then. So I think that's probably one big difference that I've seen. mean, of course, everyone's always worried about getting a job after they graduate. But that was sort of just my overall sense of,
how we as students felt back then compared to sort of the sense I get now. In terms of changes in the law school, I mean, I think in some ways, I don't think it's changed, which is great, right? I think that it has managed to hold on to that sense of community that makes it a really unique place to go to law school.
I think it has this overall sort of.
Speaker 2 (19:35.734)
I'd say collegial feeling to it. So it feels like a very collaborative place to go to law school. And yes, of course, law school is competitive. That's the nature of it, right? But I feel like compared to many places, it's just a much more supportive, collaborative place to go to school as a student. And so thankfully, I don't think that has changed over time, or at least to me, it doesn't seem that that's.
has changed over time. I think things that have changed over time, of course, so I've worn many hats. was a student, I was an alum, I was an adjunct professor, a visiting professor, I worked as a staff member, I now am a faculty member. So certainly changes in, you know, of course the makeup of the student body has changed every year. We get a new batch and we graduate.
students. So that's changed. Changes of course in the departments and on the faculty as people come and go. But some of the important changes I think that Stetson has made and I think continues to sort of be at the forefront of is really just having a sense of how the legal profession is changing and how it's going to change or it's going to need to change moving forward.
And rather than sort of shying away from that or being intimidated by that or trying to just ignore that, Stetson really embraces those changes and tries to help students be as practice ready as possible by the time they graduate. And honestly, before they even graduate, right? They get so much experience before they graduate that they're as ready as they can be by the time they enter.
the profession. And so I think that that's, that's a positive change or series of changes that the school has been willing to make over the years is just growing and changing as needed and being being leaders right in in that space, not not being not being sort of not just sort of sitting back and waiting for things to happen, but really thinking carefully.
Speaker 2 (21:56.65)
about how things are changing and being willing to move with those changes and help the students be ready for those changes as well.
John, I'm curious to hear what your experience has been as someone who is still in the midst of your first year of law school, particularly with regards to what Professor Okono was saying about the competition versus collaboration aspect of being a student at Stetson.
Yes, I would echo a lot of what you said because I feel like that was the draw of Stetson was two things. It was very collaborative environment and second, feel like Stetson really prides itself on being on the forefront of the skill-based learning as well as the academic learning, but also preparing students for what is the legal world. I feel like every time I walk onto campus, there's an
I can't even keep track of like what events going on. Where you have some speaker who's, you know, leading in the field of this, or now it's like everything is with AI. How is AI changing the law? you know, students are in classroom learning about how AI can infect the way they research law. And I feel like that, that is one of the reasons why I picked Stetson was I feel like we're at the forefront of putting students right into the midst of everything. You know, some of our friends who are upperclassmen, they'll tell you that
They're not even graduated yet, but they're out there in courtrooms already litigating trials. And I just think if you want to go to law school, I think that that's something anyone wants to do as a law student is actually be able to use that skill and to be able to use it successfully before you even graduate, before you even take the bar. think that was Stetson's number one appeal. And I think when it comes to the collaborative environment, I truly feel like Stetson's
Speaker 1 (23:54.73)
Stetson really, you know, every law school is designed to be competitive, but I feel like Stetson really makes sure that you're competing, the number one person you're competing with is yourself. Do you set your own standards? Where do you want to be? If you want to be higher, they have a whole faculty dedicated to student success and they've been really great. I've worked with them to learn about how you learn, how you can excel, how you can succeed and
meet your own standards. And I think that's what Stetson really pushes a lot. And I enjoy that. I came coming from the nonprofit world. You can't compete with people. Sometimes you really need people to care about what you're doing. And I think that's harder. I think it's you can, you know, you can outscore someone on a test, but can you convince the people like a jury or other nonprofits, other city council? Can you convince them to like you and can you convince them?
to believe in what you believe, that is 10 times harder, I think. And I feel like Stetson, that's what, and Stetson knows that, I think with our trial advocacy, the director, we got to meet the director of the trial team yesterday, and that was one of his things. He said, you know, the jury, it doesn't matter what you do, in the first few seconds, you just have to convince that jury to like you. And so I think it's not so much about, am I the smartest person in the room?
And I convince these people. And I think those skills come from more of a collaborative space. Am I working with people? Am I being kind and nice to the court or the opposing counsel? And I think those reflect in a more successful attorney. And I think that's what Stetson really promotes among its students. And I think in the end, it makes it a better environment. You're not coming at it from, need to be the best. You're coming at it.
you're coming at it from the approach, I get to work among some of the best people. I get to learn from some of the best people. And I think I love Stetson for that. You said you never know when you walk onto campus and there's judges who are former Stetson alumni giving speeches somewhere in the great hall or, you know, just just anyone. It's it's it's it's kind of like a surprise every morning you wake up and you're like, who's going to be on the stage today talking? know,
Speaker 1 (26:12.718)
Our lunch hour, no one really has classes during our lunch hour, so there's always something going on during the lunch hour. You just wake up that morning and you get to pick where you want to go and who you want to talk to, who you want to see.
That's great. Yeah, so I'm curious to ask you both a little bit about specifically, so the topic of this episode is specifically about advice for first year law students. And so I'm curious to ask a little bit about that to both of you. I think you have kind of unique and interestingly unique pairing here in terms of perspectives on it. As someone who is currently going through his first year of law school at Setson.
and professor as someone who went to Stetson a decade ago that you can both kind of comment on that in interesting ways. So I guess, you the first thing that I would want to ask about is since everyone takes the same set of courses their first year in law school, I'm curious to know what do you think are just some of the most common challenges or obstacles that first year students tend to face?
when they're taking those classes and when they're arriving at law school for the first time.
John, you're closer to this, so would you like to start?
Speaker 1 (27:27.446)
Yeah, I can start. I think one of the biggest challenges is kind of just learning about who you are, how you learn. think this is, let me say, when you go into law school, no one really is above one another. It's very different from undergrad in a lot of respects, but I think you just have to learn what works for you.
How do you study? you could get the same score sitting next to the person sitting next to you, but you might've studied completely differently. And like for me, for example, a lot of my stuff is I'm more visual learner. So I have to sit down and I have to graph this out versus a lot of people can sit there with like a hundred page outline. And that just terrifies me to have a hundred pages in front of me. Like I would rather have one giant graph with all the moving parts.
So I think learning about how you learn and being able to adapt and change. I know that was one of the things we learned a lot in orientation was you might think you're doing okay with how your normal routine, but if it doesn't work, then okay, go meet with someone in the Academic Success Center. They're very well-versed in different learning styles, especially when it comes to law school. So I think sitting down with them and
trying new ways to study. mean, are you more repetition or we have so much access to recordings of lectures, recordings of professors, a lot of students. I know I have a couple of friends who will do that. They will just go in the library and they'll listen to the recordings and they'll take notes on that after class. So I think that's the challenge is just finding about.
about how you learn and then also just being comfortable with that, because you might not know right away. You might not get it. I mean, the first couple of classes, you're reading these cases and the professors will tell you, we'll never write like this, but we're going to read 100 pieces about this. And so learning how to really take that complex material and just simplify it and make it understandable, that's definitely a challenge.
Speaker 1 (29:40.696)
But I would say as long as you just keep yourself open to it and start, just tackle it and take it as however fast you want to take it and being able to find the ways you learn, just give it time. think, you'll be, anyone will be fine. You just need to really find that what works for you and don't really get bogged down on what other people are doing. You know, what works for them works for them. What works for you works for you and it might be different.
Speaker 2 (30:12.558)
I think I will start with sort of three points and the first will be to just echo what John said, right? Really identifying and just embracing what works best for you. First year students in particular are going to hear lots and lots of advice, some solicited, some not solicited. And ultimately, I think first year students have to figure out
what is best for them as individuals, even if it's something different, right? So, so much is thrown at you in terms of outline like this, study like this, find a study group, know, briefcases a certain way. And all of this advice is good advice, right? But you have to sort of find the pieces of it that work well for you.
personally. And I think that involves a lot of self-reflection, And thinking critically about what information you've received from others, realizing that it's coming from a good place, and then trying to figure out, all right, what can I actually implement and what is going to be effective for me moving forward? you know, pick what works for you, but don't feel compelled.
to take on and implement everything that's thrown at you because not all of it is going to work for you. The second thing I would say is sort of embrace the change. Law school is different, I'd say for most people than anything that they've done before in a lot of ways. And I think...
just being willing to acknowledge that and accept that and ultimately embrace that will really help you have a better experience in law school rather than kind of resisting and being like, well, this isn't like what I did before, or this professor doesn't teach how my professors did before, or this assignment isn't like anything I've done before and sort of resisting and pushing against that. Instead, just embrace it with open arms, right?
Speaker 2 (32:32.618)
It's something different, it's something new. And that in some ways should be really exciting. It's a new challenge. The courses are different, right? For many people, they've not taken classes on the topics that are covered in law school. The type of research and type of writing and type of analysis and type of class preparation that they had to engage in previously is different than what they're going to have to do now in law school.
And so I think just acknowledging that and working with that. And then the third suggestion I'd have at this point, be figuring out what works for you in terms of time management. mean, people who make it to law school right there, smart, accomplished people, and they have excelled in their previous educational and professional experiences.
but law school takes a lot of time and a lot more time than I think most students realize, especially at the very beginning, something that seems like, this case is only 10 pages long, right? That should only take me 10, 10, 15 minutes to get through. No, right? Like that might take you hours to get through and that's okay, but you need to recognize that it is gonna take a lot more time. And so you have to figure out again, going back to what I said before, what works for you so.
Come up with a calendaring system if you don't already have one in place because you are going to have a lot of things that you have to read, right, to submit, meetings you'll have to attend, classes you have to attend, other things going on in life that you have to keep track of. And so having a calendaring system will really, I think, help you make sure that you are meeting all of your deadlines and all of your commitments.
Check it multiple times to make sure everything's accurate. And I also encourage people to try to set aside chunks of time. So it's really hard. John, you probably have found this, right? If you have several classes that you're trying to read for, it's really hard to kind of spend a few minutes on one, a few minutes on the next, a few minutes on the next. You really kind of have to set aside a chunk of time to focus on a particular assignment or a particular topic.
Speaker 2 (34:52.398)
rather than kind of jumping back and forth. so thinking strategically about that as you are setting up your calendar and planning for your day or your week or whatever period of time you're looking at, I think can be helpful.
Yeah, I've seen some, a piece of advice that I've seen cited a number of places is that you should treat law school like a full-time job. But I'm curious if like you can drill down into like the finer grain details of like what you think that involves. What does it mean to treat it as a full-time job, especially for students who might be coming directly from undergraduate who might not be thinking quite in those terms.
Yeah, I can say from working full time and going into law school full time, I actually do try to treat it like a full time job in the sense that, you know, I might not have class till one, but I'm not waking up at 12 and running over to class. I'm still waking up around like eight, maybe sometimes seven, because more of an early person. And that's when I start, you know, I review, I'll read.
and I'll prepare for class whatever we were supposed to read that day. If I haven't been able to finish it, I'll finish it or I'll try to review it to make sure I'm ready. So in a sense, I try to treat it like a job in that sense. I'm kind of like a full-time job. I try to stop to like when it gets six, seven p.m., I have to be done. If I try to keep going, it's just not good. I don't know what I'm reading anymore. It's not making sense to me.
So I think in that you have to be okay with saying, okay, I did my shift today and it will be there tomorrow when I wake up, the text books will still be on my desk the next day. Since you have to it like that. And I think one of the best advice I got when I first started law school was also find that time to have your vacation days too. Or do something for a couple hours on the weekend that isn't law school related.
Speaker 1 (37:00.046)
Take a breath. I mean stats and you're very fortunate. You can go spend a couple hours on the beach And I found not being from a place with the beach nearby. I love doing that That's been very fun, know And sometimes it will even bring a textbook off to the beach and I'll sit there and I'll do a little bit of reading and it's very relaxing and I try to visit my family that I have in Florida on the weekend, so You have to balance it. So like a full-time job. You do have to balance it with
your life, you have the work life and you have your own social life and you want to make sure you're still giving yourself that time or else it's just you're going to be kind of miserable.
Speaker 2 (37:42.446)
I think that balance is key, right? With respect to sort of the full-time job aspect, I think it's different for some people perhaps than undergrad because they might've been able to go to their classes here and there, perhaps do some work outside of class and do quite well, right? But law school requires sort of more of a constant full-time commitment. So as John noted,
even when you're not in class, you're still working on something related to law school, class prep and assignment and extracurricular activity, whatever it might be. So it's sort of a more constant full-time commitment than perhaps some people's undergraduate experiences might've been. But like John said, even if it is a full-time job, it's not your whole life. And that balance is
critical to to find and to maintain because you yes, it's important and Yes, you are putting in a lot of time and energy but you can't lose sight of the other things in your life that matter and finding Finding time for the people and activities that matter to you and make you happy
that is going to, think, ultimately make you a more successful law student because you are going to be happier and healthier. And you are going to, I think, feel like law school is not the only thing going on in your life. Instead, it's just an important, one important component of it. And so, yeah, I really want to echo the balance point. I think that's key.
I think it seems to me like part of achieving that balance would also be figuring out how to both be very engaged. How do I put this? Figuring out how to study very carefully and very deeply on the one hand, but also stay very engaged with your classes and with the community on the other.
Speaker 3 (40:09.452)
And so guess I'm curious to ask you both a little bit about what do you think are some important strategies for kind of for staying engaged, both in class, but also just kind of socially and with with the greater law school community.
In terms of in class, even if, let's take the first year classes, for example, right? You're assigned to your first year classes. And even if you're in a class and you think to yourself, this area of law is really not something that's for me. I'm probably never going to practice in this area. That's fine. But I think it's important to recognize that there is a lot of overlap.
among the different topics that you're learning and that even if that particular topic or area of the law is not something that you think you will focus on moving forward, try to find the aspect of it that could be relevant or could be interesting to you or at least try to put it in perspective and realize that yes, this is maybe not what you're going to focus on.
but this is an important part of your educational experience. This will help you learn X, Y, Z, and sort of just thinking about it in perspective in terms of how it will help you moving forward, even if it's not something that you want to focus on.
Speaker 1 (41:41.668)
Yeah, I would agree with that too, because I think you mentioned something earlier that was really important. I feel like a lot of us go want to go to law school because we were lifetime learners. And I think there's definitely some cases or some classes where I'm thinking, this is this is not very interesting. But what's nice is I feel like the stats and professors they know
They know when one week is, okay, this is a dry part of my syllabus. And I think they know how to tackle that. I think as long as you do your end of the work, it'll really help make it engaging. I've had some great professors too who, you you're reading something about the law that's been the way that it's been forever. And, you know, maybe it's not the most appealing thing to learn about and you kind of just hate it. And I had professors, especially in criminal, I know Professor Scully would
open up the class and be like, well, this is the law, but you're allowed to, I'll give you a few seconds. Like, why don't you think this is, you know, the justice part of the law, which, you know, it's not really what you're always learning about in law school, but to have those important conversations really makes it engaging. You know, you're learning about things have been the way forever, but you know, one day you might be the student who graduates from Stetson Law and you're working on that issue and you might be able to change it.
but first you have to learn it. And I think the professors know how to make it more engaging. Especially the questions they really ask, they'll start to get you to wonder. I know too, one of the first classes we take as one else is civil procedures and it's a lot of rule-based about filing. And I think sometimes some students don't like that because it gets pretty dry. Like it's just the rule of file. Like what is the complaint? it, you know, does it mean, is it?
following the rules of everything from font size to whatever. And that can get pretty dry. But then this semester, I'm in research and writing too, and it's employment law focus. And our first thing we had to work on was a brief for motion dismissals on a well-pled complaint. it's like, the two just overlapped instantly. And it's like, well, I learned that. I know that. I can do that. And then employment law.
Speaker 1 (43:56.246)
I took the employment law because I thought that would be more interesting. so I kind of, they do marry the two a lot. You have a lot of professors who will be teaching and they'll say, okay, you're probably going to learn this in so-and-so's class, but I'll give you a brief topic. Like they really do mesh. So I think it's just because you have a class that you don't like so much, don't throw it away. Cause there's probably going to be something in there that you do like.
the professors are so great in the area in which they teach, so they know how to make it more engaging. And a lot of times professors will use examples like more modern examples of how this is playing out, there's a certain legal issue. I know professors, like in constitutional law, we're talking about some of the biggest things happening now with the former president and we're thinking in class, one day you're learning about something that happened in the 1700s.
and then you get to see how it's applying to something that just happened yesterday. And I think that makes law school a lot more engaging when you can see how it can be applied through different subjects, through over time. So I definitely, know it's, sometimes it is boring. I don't know. I think if you love to learn and you can get through those readings, it's worth it. It's really, I think it's fun. I think some people will think, you think law school's fun.
I know, sometimes it doesn't seem like that, but sometimes it really is. Sometimes you walk away from a lecture and you're like, wow, I never would have thought that, or I would have never seen it like that. And I think that's the best thing. I always say, if I feel like I went to a lecture and I walked away and I felt like I learned something, I never would have learned. If I just would have not gone to law school, I feel like it's been a good day.
Mm.
Speaker 2 (45:46.946)
And I think to thinking about the practical significance of what you're learning or like John noted, what the connections are to what's happening day to day in the real world that can help make it seem less abstract, less theoretical, much more real, right? And that can help make it more engaging. And then I think in terms of
staying engaged with the other activities that you're going to do and the rest of the rest of your life, right? It's, I think it's about finding things that, that matter to you. And even if it's not something that you think you're going to practice or work on professionally when you graduate, law school is a great time to just try things out. Go to that presentation that
you know nothing about, but the description of it sounded interesting, right? Go to that networking event where you don't know anyone, but it could be a really great opportunity for you to meet people who might end up being friends or colleagues or potential supervisors down the road. So I think really just making the most of it and picking some things that are just interesting to you and might be fun to you. And another way to do that, right, is
with is through your pro bono activities or just through even if it's not through the law school, right? Volunteer work or other organizations that you might engage with outside of law school, find something that's meaningful to you. And that of course makes it a lot easier to stay engaged because you're doing something that really matters to you and that could really make a difference.
for others and help make things sort of better for everyone.
Speaker 3 (47:44.622)
Yeah, building on what you were just saying, professor, I'm curious to ask, like, what advice would you give to students in terms of finding out more specifically about, the particular career paths that people take within the law? Because there's the study of law that you get in law school specifically, but then there's also the actual strange ways that people make their way through the field, and that can unfold in any number of different ways.
So guess like, what do you think are the best strategies for students to learn more about that?
think first take advantage of the opportunities that Stetson sets in place, right? And the different departments at Stetson Law who can help you with those types of things, right? So work with the career services team, work with the alumni engagement team to meet alumni who might practice or work, practice or
otherwise be experts in the particular area you're interested in. So definitely using the tools that are already in place for you, going to the presentations, the networking events, maybe joining an in of court, Different opportunities that are already in place. But I think an important part of it is also sort of choosing your own adventure and
being willing to sort of take that initiative and set things up on your own. So if you aren't really sure what you wanna do, but maybe you've narrowed it down to a couple of areas of the law or even just types of organizations, right, that you might wanna work with. Being proactive and reaching out to people at those firms or at those organizations or with those government agencies and just asking if you can
Speaker 2 (49:44.184)
Talk with them, right? Sort of being able to chat with people on Zoom has opened up a whole world for us in terms of connection. so even if you might not be able to meet with someone in person, ask if they could jump on Zoom and you could talk with them for a little bit about what they do and what their career path was and what advice they would have to offer you based on that. Or if it is somebody who you can meet with in person, go meet with them.
or ask if perhaps you could even shadow them for an afternoon or a week or whatever they might be willing, even if it's just a couple hours to kind of get a sense of what they're doing. And then just, I think just asking questions, right? Working with the staff, with the faculty, asking them what their career paths were and what they did in law school or what activities they took on.
during or after law school, just really sort of trying to learn from the people who have already been through much of what you're experiencing and trying to get advice from them about how you might proceed, or at least getting advice so that you can make a more informed decision about what you might want to do next.
Any final thoughts that either of you have regarding your first year in law school or entering law school for the first time? Any, anything that you'd just like to add before we go?
I would say on the note of career, like what you want to do after law school regarding careers, I'd really say just to echo, to keep it open. think there's some, especially as a one-hour, someone will come up and you'll say, we do this type of practice. it's like, or they're like, we space law. And it's like, that's a thing now. there's, I think you'll never feel like you don't know what you want to do. The problem is going to be like, you want to try everything, I think.
Speaker 1 (51:42.72)
So I think, and that's a good thing. Like that's a good problem to have to think you want to try this. You think you like this. So I'd really say, say yes to a lot of things. If your friend says, I'm interested in this, I'm going to go to this event. Would you want to come just go with them? It might not be something you think you like, but you ended up going and you met some really great attorneys and in your, you're speaking with people who are experts in their fields and they can tell you a lot.
And I think meeting with professors, they're experts in their fields as well. They can tell you about what they've done. So I feel like there's a lot of resources, especially at Stetson. There's so many resources figuring out who you are, what you like to do. I like the phrase that you use, Professor Rhodes, the pick your own adventure. I really like that. think there's just so much out there and you'll find out there's an area of a law that you've never even heard of and just go learn about it.
Never be afraid to say yes to something and I think you'll really enjoy it and always just be open to that experience and I think you'll really enjoy it and I think it's that's and it's even more fun. I really loved it here and I'm very happy with my decision.
That seems like, yeah, that seems like great advice. Cause I think, even if you find yourself pulled in a lot of different directions in terms of your interests, I think it's also still probably very easy to dismiss certain things. like, I'm never going to be interested in that. Or I'm never going to find that fascinating. And I think the inclination to try to open yourself up to more things and be like, well, say yes to it and see what it's like. Give it a shot. is probably a very good.
a very good instinct to have because you never know, you might find yourself all of a sudden being unexpectedly fascinated by something that you had never considered before.
Speaker 1 (53:29.866)
Absolutely, yes.
I used to be a reporter and I used to go to zoning board meetings and board of adjustment meetings. And the last thing in the world that I ever would have thought that I was interested in was that sort of thing. And I remember sitting in one of these meetings one time and there was this attorney who was applying for a zoning variance for his client. it was like, on the one hand, were trying to...
you get a particular commercial use for this property that was zoned for residential, right? And then on top of that, they had like a couple little ways in which the way they were going to develop the property didn't quite meet the zoning requirements, right? And you could, and over the course of the council meeting, you got the feeling that the council was, that they weren't quite okay with,
allowing the different usage of the property, but they didn't mind the little changes around the edge. And so at the last minute, the attorney applies to bifurcate the application, bifurcate the vote so that they'll vote on just the little things around the edges and the main usage issue will be postponed to another meeting. And I remember just sitting there and just thinking, God, that was just an incredible move on this guy's part. Like he just, understood.
here's the way in which they're for me right now. Here's the way in which they were against me. How do I take advantage of that? And I just thought, God, this was unexpectedly fascinating in a field that I would have thought was just dry as dust and something that I never would have been interested in before. So I think, yeah, think keeping yourself open to those sorts of possibilities really can put you in situations where all of a sudden you find, wait a minute, turns out this was really interesting or really engaging in an unexpected kind of way.
Speaker 1 (55:21.646)
I used to have to sit on the zoning hearing boards too, and when I was working at the nonprofit and you would think a lot of people would like, why would you want to go to those? And the same thing, you would hear like disputes about properties and.
going back like hundreds of years and all of sudden it's made its way into the zoning hearing board and that was one of the reasons why even when I was working I was like there was this still like this thing on my shoulder saying this is really cool like seeing the solicitors battle that out was I want to do that I have no idea what they're talking about but it sounds interesting.
I think that's an important point though, right? In terms of maybe final thoughts or advice, right? Don't be afraid to think outside the box and try to come up with creative solutions to problems or issues that might seem like there's sort of this either or option in terms of moving forward, but often there's gonna be a middle ground. yes, one party or entity might end up happier than the other one with
with the solution, but there are often solutions where both parties or people or entities involved in the matter or the dispute can sort of forge a creative path forward. The other piece of advice that I'd offer is try to put everything in perspective, right? As we've talked about.
law school's a lot and of course it's a really significant decision, right? It's a significant part of your life and sort of your career path. But I tell my students like, remember, right? That assignment or that exam, it's one exam, know, one assignment in one class, which is just part of one semester, which is just part of one year, which is just part of law school, which in the grand scheme of things,
Speaker 2 (57:22.498)
is hopefully a relatively short period in the rest of your life. And so trying not to get too hung up or to be too hard on yourself based on sort of that one moment in time, that one thing you're working on, just trying to keep the perspective and remember big picture, why you're doing this, why you care and what you want to achieve moving forward, I think will just help.
help you sort of be again, happier and healthier as you work your way through law school. And then I guess I would just, my final thought would be, be nice, right? It's a small community. And even if it feels like there are a lot of lawyers out there, John mentioned this earlier, right? Just being nice to the people around you, whether it's the people who work at the court,
the people who work in your office, the people who are across the table from you, whether that's in a litigation context or some sort of transactional context, just being nice to everyone, I think, will really pay dividends and just makes it easier and nicer for everyone to try to work together and find solutions to the issues that lawyers are
are particularly well suited to work on and hopefully solve, just remembering that the person you're sitting next to, right, might be someone who many years from now, or maybe not so many years from now, you end up working with or working for or working against. So just being nice.
That seems like a great point to end it on. Thank you both so much for being here.
Speaker 1 (59:17.378)
Thank you.
Yeah, thanks again. This was a lot of fun. It was great talking with both of you. if you have any follow up questions, please feel free to reach out.
This has been Real Cases. Thank you for listening. Check back for more episodes about an array of legal topics presented by the Stetson University College of Law. Learn more at stetson.edu.
Topics: Real Cases Podcast
