In this episode, Professor Roberta K. Flowers, elder law expert at Stetson University College of Law, opens her case file on scams targeting elders, the importance of legal autonomy, and a new kind of accessible courtroom. Plus: Does the age of consent have an expiration date?
Transcript:
Speaker 1 (00:01.784)
We have a saying, you have to live until you die, and we want to make sure that you live until you die. And that's why being an elder law attorney is such an incredible career. You want to be a lawyer that is satisfied almost every day of your professional life? Be an elder law
Speaker 2 (00:22.008)
This is Real Cases, a legal podcast presented by the Stetson University College of Law. We'll sit down with Stetson Law faculty and students to examine today's critical cases and debates in environmental, international, elder, and business law, plus the role of social justice in these fields. Join us as we open the case file.
I'm Dustin Britt, Master of Arts in Education from East Carolina University. My guest is Roberta K. Flowers, Professor of Law at Stetson University and Director of the Center for Excellence in Elder Law. Since earning her JD from the University of Colorado, she has served as Deputy District Attorney for the state's 18th Judicial District and the Assistant U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of Florida. She's earned accolades from the Student Bar Association
Florida Supreme Court and received a tele award for her series of educational videos for attorneys. Professor Flowers recently became the president-elect of the National Academy of Elder Law Attorneys. A content warning, in the middle section of this episode we speak briefly about a case involving accusations of rape.
Tell me a little bit about what elder law is.
Yeah, that's a great question Justin because there's a lot of people they've heard of estate planning They've heard wills they've heard of all that but they're not really sure what this thing called elder law is and Elder law is really a look at issues that face people Not only after they die with their states, but how we can make their lives better While they're here on earth, right? And so I like to look at us
Speaker 1 (02:07.47)
as elder laws, kind of like holistic estate planning, right? So we want to make sure that their estate is given away the way they want it to be given away when they die. We also want to talk about, you know, how do we pay for long term care if they need long term care? How do we get them into a position where people can support them in a variety of different ways? How do they want their last hours of life to look like? Right.
What do they want with regard to, you know, supports to keep them alive or to allow them, you know, to to move off this earth? And so elder law is really a very broad based area of law that includes all kinds of fascinating issues faced by all of us as we age. You know, from, you know, from how to pay for stuff to, you know, how to make sure that my
my will is proper so that what I want to have happen with my estate happens and everything in between.
Is elder a legal term? Is there a defined number when someone becomes legally an elder?
No, not really. And it varies between different issues. So if you're talking about employment discrimination, you're talking about discrimination, then after 45. So 45 is the cutoff. If you're talking about certain benefits, you're talking about 65, you're talking about 72. If you're in prison, elderly is considered to be 55 because people don't live very long in prison.
Speaker 1 (03:52.012)
The definition of elderly kind of began very depending on the context in which it's being used. But we usually think of elderly as more of the idea of what are the issues that people face as they age, right? So as an elderly, I might be dealing with a couple that aren't really elderly, if you will, but they're looking at the issues they're going to face as they age.
And so, who they want to be their personal representative, who they want to be their healthcare service, and what do they want to do with regard to their living will. So, we really are talking about aging issues under the umbrella.
It sounds to me like elder law kind of fits into every other area of law. If it's real estate, but deals with elder, it becomes an elder law case. Is that the right way of looking at it? Yes.
And I think as opposed to calling it an elder law case, I would say it's something that an elder law attorney would help with. Now, obviously, elder law attorneys may not be familiar with bankruptcy. We have a very high percentage of elders that end up going through bankruptcy, unfortunately. And so that person may come to their elder law attorney and the elder law attorney may go, OK, that's an important issue. Let me send you to bankruptcy.
So I guess I wouldn't say that they would deal with all of those issues, but absolutely a lot of those issues are aging issues. Something that we don't usually think about, but one of the places that I find the most rewarding is when you have adults who have a child with a disability, right? And so they come into the elder law attorney and the truth is they don't
Speaker 1 (05:48.014)
They're not as concerned about their own self and where they're going to go and how, you know, how are they're going to be living out the end of their life. They're more concerned about who's going to take care of my son or my daughter when I'm no longer here. And I have to tell you, of the reasons why elder law attorneys are so satisfied in the job that they do is that I remember I was working with a lawyer up in Pennsylvania and a woman.
with her son, was autistic, who would always live with her, came in and was so burdened, not by her own demise, if you will, not by her own deaths, but just so burdened by how am I going to make sure that my child is taken care of even though he's an adult? And to be able to talk to that person and walk through what we can do, what kinds of supports we can set up.
what kinds of special needs trusts we can do to make sure that they don't lose their public benefits, but still maintain a life that's good. And just to watch the burden come off of her shoulders, right? Like, okay, now I can die in peace kind of thing, right? It's just so immensely rewarding. I mean, it's just such a great place to practice law because you see the difference you can make.
people's lives, you know, so in such a great way, in such an impactful way. And so, you know, it's a, you know, it just depends on what the client brings to you that day.
I don't know that I've ever spoken to an attorney who feels so amplified by what they do and kind of full of life and happy with what they do. What are some examples of cases or even types of cases that really feel rewarding to you?
Speaker 1 (07:46.872)
Well, I think one of the kinds of cases that's to be rewarding to any elderly is when they are able to solve the immediate crisis issue. So a lot of times an elderly will have somebody come in to them, the children, and say, my mom's in the hospital. The hospital is telling us we have to, they're going to discharge her tomorrow and we can't bring her home.
Like she's not able to come home and live either with us or by herself. And now the elder law attorney is working to figure out, OK, what's the best fit for that person in what kind of home? And then how are we going make it right? How are we going to become eligible for Medicaid veterans benefits if it's a veteran so that that family feels secure that their loved ones are going to be taken care of?
in this very crisis, very scary part of their lives. Elderly latrines love to be able to solve those kinds of problems. Obviously, when we have issues where, know, unfortunately in this country, I don't think that it's there everywhere, but certainly we have an epidemic of elder exploitation. We have a lot of elderly people
that are being exploited, some by strangers in scam kind of situations, but also by family members, right? know, grandson moves in with grandma, right? He is basically taking everything she has, but she's not going to want to report it because what happens if she reports it? He may send her to a nursing home. And most of us want to live out our days at home, right?
And so those cases are very difficult. I'm an elder law attorney. I'm seeing what this son is doing to his grandson, is doing to his grandma. But grandma doesn't want to report it. Grandma is afraid to report it. And so as an elder law attorney, it's so rewarding, so satisfying to try to figure out how can we protect her, how can we protect our client, and still
Speaker 1 (10:09.926)
not go against her wishes because she's an adult and she has a right to make those decisions. And so that kind of balancing between helping the person but also recognizing that they have the right to make that decision makes elder law so interesting and so like every day is a different thing that I need to figure out for a different family. Some of the saddest cases.
I will tell you, I've been involved with our guardianship places where the kids are fighting over mom, right? Like one kid thinks mom should be in nursing home. One kid wants mom at home. They're in front of a court because they're arguing that mom is incapacitated and one of them needs to take care of mom. And now mom is watching her family being destroyed, which is the one thing she doesn't want.
at all, right? And so those are very sad cases. They're very difficult cases. Here in Florida, both mom, who would be the person that would have the guardian put over her, and both the kids are all going to have lawyers. Many times, I mean, one of the reasons why Elton Law is such a fun place to practice is that there's a lot of collaboration, right? Those three lawyers are going to be talking. What can we do to figure this out?
Right? How can you figure out how to take care of mom without there being this division? Right? And unfortunately, we see some situations. I was talking to a lawyer just the other day in North Carolina where the mom keeps getting kidnapped. Right? So mom gets taken to one state to avoid the guardianship by one child. And then that other child goes and visits mom, grabs mom and brings her to another state.
Sad, sad, sad. And for the elder law attorney, it's sad regardless of who you're representing because at the end of the day, we all became elder law attorneys because we care about people that are elderly, right? And so even though I may be representing a daughter or the son in guardianship, ultimately I want to have happen what is best for that elderly person. And so I think that's what makes it such a great
Speaker 1 (12:36.192)
way to earn a living, but also a very difficult one at times when you're dealing with families that just can't seem to figure out what is in the best interest of that person.
You mentioned early on, I'm sorry.
You're asking me to between my children here, you know, because all of those areas are just fascinating. From my perspective, one of the really interesting areas is ethics, because representing people in the elder law context is very different than in a lot of other contexts. So for example, if you're criminal lawyer, you're never going to be asking yourself, who's my client? You'll know the person that's
Accused of a crime is your client, right? And there's nobody else that you're worried about except that person. Well, when you're involved in elder law, you're going to have the family involved. You're going to have the elderly person involved. And you're going to have to figure out who is my client and who am I going to take instruction from? And that can be some very interesting ethical issues, especially when the children come with mom, right? Most criminal cases, you're not going to have mom
unless you're a juvenile, coming with the client. But in the elder law area, a lot of times we're going to have other people involved. And so we've got to figure out how do I keep that person's confidences and still use those people to support the elderly person. So the ethical issues, which is really why I just came into elder law, are just really unique for
Speaker 2 (14:16.942)
You mentioned having the elderly person in the room. I read that you created, I believe, the first elder-friendly courtroom. And, you know, I'm very familiar with ADA, so I know what the basics look like. What's beyond that that helps elders?
I love it. I'm so glad you asked that question. Yes, we created and we're lucky enough to get funding from our Attorney General's office to build a model courtroom, which we call elder friendly. We like to think of it as ADA on steroids, right? So it's not just enough that the person can get physically into the courtroom, but what are some things that may have traditionally been in courtrooms, but really aren't necessary? So take for example.
If you've ever been in a courtroom, right, you have to step up to be on the witness stand. So if you're a witness, you're going to step up on the witness stand. Well, if you're in a wheelchair, if you're using a walker, that step is like, you know, a gigantic leap. And so we designed the courtroom to say, can we maneuver the sight lines within the courtroom where we don't need to have that witness box?
where they have to step into it. right? Just, right? So another thing, I don't know if you've ever noticed, but we talk about people passing the bar. What that means is they're allowed to work on the other side of the bar in the courtroom. That's what passing the bar means. And so if you think about traditionally, there's been this like swinging, almost like a saloon door in the middle of that bar.
where the witnesses and the lawyers and the clients have to go through that swinging door. Okay, well, again, if you're in a walker, if you're in a wheelchair, that swinging door is an obstacle, and it's an unnecessary obstacle. And so we actually went to Disney, and Disney designed us some doors that go back and forth on a signal, on an electronic
Speaker 1 (16:34.52)
signal or some sort signal. But again, when I walk up in my walker, I walk up in my wheelchair, that door comes open for me. the courtroom is opened up to me and there are no obstacles between me and being able to fully participate in the justice system. We're really excited about four or five years ago.
Some people from Mexico City came and they took all kinds of measurements and things. So there's actually a replica of our courtroom in Mexico City. So that's exciting, right? To say that people really are interested in not only making it accessible, but eliminating as many of the obstacles that keep people from fully being able to be part
So how do we move past this being a model and towards this being the norm?
I think first of all, you have to remember that a lot of our courthouses are just old, right? mean, and so you first have to have the need and the desire and the resources to rebuild a courtroom. Now, some of the things aren't very expensive. So, for example, we had carpet put down that you could see where all of the rows of seating were while you were looking down, right? So, so.
You would even notice it if nobody pointed out to you, oh, you see those little squares that tells you where the seats are. So some of the things we did certainly aren't expensive, but they have to be intentional. And you have to have something that's going to say, OK, let's intentionally do this. Let's think about the fact that when you're elderly, you get really cold really easy and you don't need to be in a courtroom that has, you know, air vents just whooshing down the back.
Speaker 1 (18:34.318)
down your shirt. But you have to be intentional about that. It's not going to be that expensive to put bathols in those so that they don't have that whooshing going on. But you have to have somebody that's willing to be cognizant of all of those things that people face when they're aging and which can impact on their ability to be part of the justice system.
As the pandemic has raged on, know a lot of hearings, cases, have gone virtual and have been happening over Zoom calls and things like that. Does that provide increased accessibility to elders or has the technology been a barrier?
I think, you know, it's kind the yin and yang, right? So we've seen the ability to have people contacting lawyers. I would tell you, law attorneys did not lose business during this time. mean, a lot of people were very interested in coming on board. The problem that we have faced is, as you indicated, a lot of elderly people aren't well versed in technology. And so there's been some of those issues.
And the issue being, if you bring me, your mom, to a Zoom call and I don't know how to do the Zoom call, then you're going to end up being part of this conversation when you really shouldn't be part of this conversation, right? Confidentiality means that I, as the lawyer, am talking directly to my client who's nobody else present. So we've had a lot of issues with how do we assure that our clients are
in a place where their confidentiality is being saved and that they're not being unduly influenced by children, right? That there's a child over there out of the corner that I can't see and they're pushing their mom or dad to do certain things that they might not want to do if that child wasn't there. So we've had that confidentiality issue that we've had to kind of deal with, you know.
Speaker 1 (20:48.43)
And lawyers are such creative people. Ways to say, oh, hey, Bobby, I would love to see the rest of your room. Can you take your camera and just show it around? Oh, yeah, sure, I got to show you my room. And now I can see, that person by themselves, or is there somebody else there that needs to be excused from the conversation? So we've seen that issue. Obviously, no.
I'm not being political, but I'm very excited about what Biden is doing about nursing homes. Understand that one of the things that really came to light when we went into lockdown was how short staff our nursing homes are. Understanding most nursing homes, families come in and do a variety of different things to care for their family members.
Right. They may help them with showers. They may help them with, you know, eating all the things that they take care of that staff didn't have to worry about because they had different family members to take care of those those issues. Well, they're locked down. Right. And now the staff is having to cover all of those things that family members have done before. And I think all of us in this area of law knew knew that
nursing homes were short staff. We knew that corporations were coming in and buying out nursing homes and seeing them as profit, the profit margin and eliminating staff. But we really saw it when it came to the pandemic. We really saw that shortness. And so one of the things, we're always looking for the silver lining in every cloud. And so one of the things that I think has really come out of the pandemic that's good
is suddenly the federal government say, a second. Most of these nursing homes are getting federal funding through Medicaid. Like a lot of them, that's the majority of their beds are paid for by Medicaid. The federal government can therefore control those staffing issues, can control those things through the first streets. And so it's exciting. It's exciting to see the federal government.
Speaker 1 (23:08.216)
taking on those issues and saying, no, no, we're not going to leave it just to the states. We're going to take it on and we're going to make some differences that require certain staffing in order for you to get federal monies. So that's been a good, right? That's been a good in this area. You know, we've had to be creative, right? We've had to find out ways to get documents signed, to have witnesses. I think that thing that we're
proud of as elder law attorneys is that we made it work. We continue to make it work even in the light of the craziness that the pandemic brought. You know the other thing that we're seeing the federal government suddenly become interested in and that is obviously the guardianship area. You know the Free Britney movement right and we could talk for hours about
how different her conservatorship really was for most of the guardianship conceived across the country. But the most important thing that came out of that was it woke up our federal government to say, a second, yes, this is state-based, but we can encourage states to improve their guardianship systems, again, through federal funding. And so we're seeing a lot of good legislation being put out there in Washington.
that's going to help the people that are going to be in the guardianship system going forward. So that's exciting too. So I guess, you know, it's a good time to be an elder law. It's a good time to be watching what's happening across the country, the changes that are being made. My last little preaching thing is one of the things that we've seen is the issue of home-based care.
Traditionally, Medicaid has the default position of Medicaid, which pays for long-term care for people in long-term care, has been institutional, right? Go to an institution, we'll pay for it, but if you're at home, we're going to be more reluctant. Long waiting lists to allow people to get Medicaid when they were staying home. And we're seeing the federal government say no. That makes no sense for us to be so reluctant to pay
Speaker 1 (25:31.254)
when we are talking about staying home and paying for services as opposed to being in nursing home. So, you know, we're seeing a lot of conversations going on in government to really help this vulnerable population. And so it's exciting.
I would guess that when it comes time to talk about hospice, there's no time for red tape.
Exactly, exactly. And there's no time for, you know, I'm watching the last days of my father's life. I don't have the energy to go through all the things I need to go through to make sure that it's painful, right? That Medicare is going to pay for it, that I'm not going to get into some problem with it. I don't need to be worrying about that. I need to be worried about being there with my mom and my dad in their last.
hours with that energy as it is. again, that's why two things, that's why an elder law attorney is going to be so important in those crisis times. And that's why a good elder law attorney is going to encourage all of us to put in place the things we need before we get to that crisis, right? Like, who do I want to make those decisions? What do I want?
to have happened to me? I want a feeding tube? Do I not want a feeding tube? Do I want to be forced on oxygen? Do I not want to be forced on oxygen? All of the decisions that I'm just going to tell you are so difficult to make at those times, right? So difficult to make. I every one of those decisions is like heart wrenching. And so to have a document in place where I can look at it and I can say, dad didn't want this, dad didn't want that.
Speaker 1 (27:20.588)
Dad didn't want this. And now I am at peace when I say, nope, nope, take that feeding tube out. My dad didn't want that. So the importance of pre-planning is always at the top of every other law attorney's list of things. Somebody comes in and they say, I want a will. OK, we'll talk about the will. But let's also talk about these other things that we want.
have in place to make your life better as you age, right? So that's our song song. Get people ready before they need it.
or you and your own experience, what's it like representing or advocating for someone who is no longer alive? Is it a very different experience?
I don't think so. I haven't done a lot of probate, which is what that's called, right? So I'm advocating, but I do know this. When I do a will or I do something to make sure that somebody's rights and wants and needs are taken care of. And then I'm faced with somebody who wants to try to undo what their will was, what they wanted to have happen.
what they desired, you know, that's not a hard argument for me because I guess one of the things that is so important in the area of the law is autonomy, right? That even if I have gray hair, I have the right to tell you what I want done. so it's so important to get it right and so important to defend that.
Speaker 1 (29:13.134)
When you know, maybe the daughter or the son was left out of the will for whatever reason, right? You know, that's what the person wanted and they had a right to want that regardless of whether they were the mom of that child or not. Right. And so they think that it's always about autonomy for us. It's always about how do I put in place things that allow this person to continue
in to make decisions as long as they are capable to make decisions. And even if they're not capable of making certain kinds of decisions, they're making other decisions. One of the things one of the cases we had a few years ago was a case involving, strangely enough, or maybe not sex in the nursing homes. Right. Should I have the right to want to have sex even if I'm in a nursing home?
And the case came out of Iowa and involved a man and woman who appeared to have been very happily married for many, many years. She was now in a nursing home and there were allegations that her husband, heaven forbid, came in and had sex with her. And the stepdaughter didn't like that fact. Didn't like the fact that she believed her mom was beyond consenting and therefore this was rape, basically.
And crazily enough, a prosecutor actually filed a criminal case against that husband. No evidence of any force at all, right? And tried to argue that basically this was like statutory rape, that just like a child can't consent, this woman couldn't consent and therefore, even though she'd been consenting for 25 years with him,
And so went to trial. Luckily, the jury was smart enough to acquit him with all kinds of issues with the case. But those are the kind of cases that then make us start thinking about what kind of documents do I want to put in place so that if I want to have intimate relations with my husband until the day I take my last dying breath, I should be able to do that. Right. Very complicated issues, issues that have to be talked about.
Speaker 1 (31:40.002)
But again, as an elderly law attorney, I want to think about everything that is going to keep that person happy. Right. We have a saying, you have to live until you die. And we want to make sure that you live until you die. And that's why being an elderly law attorney is such an incredible career. I tell my students, you want to be a lawyer that is satisfied almost every day of your professional life? Be an elderly law
That's a great quote. We should put that on a t-shirt. Not to continue to harp on the saddest and darkest of situations. There's one more I wanted to ask about, and I don't know if the terminology has changed. And please let me know what the new terminology surrounding this is. Do you ever deal with cases involving physician assisted suicide?
You know, we don't very often, especially here in Florida. I will tell you that the Academy, the National Academy of Public Attorneys has gone all different ways on what should be the rules, the law with regard to assisted suicides, physicians assisted suicides or just assisted suicides like they have in Oregon. The real problem, is that our disability community
is very concerned about any kind of assisted suicide statutes that don't protect their lives because somebody else wants to make a decision that their quality of life is different. And so as elder law attorneys, we also deal a lot within the disability community. And so we are very attuned to the idea that
You know, we want to be very careful that we're not.
Speaker 1 (33:45.646)
putting forth ideas that somehow somebody should be able to determine where my quality of life has gotten to the place where, you know, I should be able to, you know, end my own life or possibly somebody else be involved in that. So as an elder law attorney, I have some suspicions about that. I have some concerns about that, and especially when I consider the disability community and their concerns.
It's the word you mentioned earlier was autonomy and it seems to keep coming back around to that, that self advocacy and that self decision making. What is an early case that either you participated in or that you observed that was formative in wanting you to pursue elder law practice?
And I think the place where I really started to get into the idea of elder law was a health with a case out of North Carolina where an individual or a woman had birth defects, had birth many, many years, was on public benefits and ended up being in an accident where she was paid a lot of money.
And the idea was we didn't want her to lose her public benefits, but we also didn't want we wanted to have that money so that if she needed a new house, if she needed certain kinds of things to make her life better, to continue to live, how do we preserve that income? And after we had created what's called a special needs trust for her, she died almost immediately there.
And her family, her husband, her mom and dad have been taking care of her her entire life. Right. They've been basically just living to take care of her. And now, you know, the state of North Carolina said, you know, we did all that, you know, and we get the house you bought and we get everything. And I remember thinking, I understand the government paid out all this money for her. But now we want to put some a couple basically
Speaker 1 (36:05.326)
homelessness in order for the money to go to the government. And I remember thinking that can't be the way it works. It's got to be, there's got to be a way to protect those people whose job had been to care for their child with a disability her entire life, to now not be left homeless. And I think that was the case that really got me started thinking about, you know, what could I do? Where could I be?
to help improve that system. Ultimately, we did get North Carolina to agree that they could keep the house, so at least they wouldn't be homeless. But it was an uphill battle. And we faced that a lot because the states do have the ability, after the person that they've been taking care of, through Medicaid, do have the ability to take that money back. And that's okay.
If it's not going to then put somebody else into in that family in a worse place than they would have been, you know, had they not had Medicaid for their child. So that was an important case to me, you know, early on, I was asked to join it because there was some federal issues and I had been in the federal system. And so that really kind of got my interest. I will tell you.
You know, I'm a consultant across the country, usually paid for, hired by somebody who's claiming debt and I'll be watching you basically helped get that person that helped somebody steal from that person. I feel very strongly about how warriors need to be very careful that we're not part of the problem, right, as opposed to being part of the solution.
I had a case out in Nebraska where two kids came to a lawyer and said, we want you to drop a power of attorney and have our mom sign it. And once she signs it, we're then going to put her in a nursing home and we're going to sell her house. And the attorney went to the mom and got the mom to sign the power of attorney without ever telling her this is what they're going to use the power of attorney for. Right. And so the mom signed the document.
Speaker 1 (38:28.628)
And the next day she's moved out of her home of many, years. She is literally kidnapped and taken into a nursing home. And the minute she walks in, kids turn around and lock the door behind her and just basically leave her there. And she was there for about five or six months before finally she was able to get ahold of her pastor, who then came in and helped get her out of the nursing home. And the reason they were able to do that was because
as the lawyer didn't consider what she was doing when she had that mother sign that power of attorney. And so it's really important from the elder law perspective that we make sure that our documents won't be used to hurt elderly people as opposed to help them. And so that's kind of been my
like my little niche area. I love to be on the side of plaintiffs of elderly people who have been exploited. And the exploitation wasn't necessarily done by the attorney, but it was done by the carelessness of the attorney in drawing of documents that helped them to steal from their parents. You think that most stealing is going to occur by scams. And not saying there's not a lot of scams on the elderly right now.
Probably the saddest one, and I actually heard it my mother-in-law, is called the grandma scam, where literally somebody calls up and says, Grandma. And Grandma says, Dustin, is that you? Yeah, it's Dustin. I'm locked up in this prison somewhere and I need you to send this money. And what grandma isn't going to do that? So there's tons of scams out there.
The big one a few years ago was the, was the Fred Astaire Dance Hall kind of scam where basically they would get elderly people in there. They would tell them what great dancers they were. They would be charging them more and more more more money. I mean, you're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars going to dance those things. So there's tons of scams out there. That's my point. Unfortunately, most of the scamming
Speaker 1 (40:53.504)
is being done by relatives and caregivers. And so as an elder, we have to always be so conscious of, am I helping somebody else take money from my family?
I wonder how much of your work or what organizations there are that are helping to educate elderly people so that they can be proactive in self-advocacy.
Yeah, and I will tell you that many of my colleagues with the National Academy of Elder Law attorneys spend a lot of time going to churches, going to, you know, where elders gather to have those kinds of conversations. Because you're right, it's education, education, education. You know, it's funny, like, you know, my elderly mother, I don't even, I can't even tell you how many times I've said.
If you don't know who the person is on the phone, don't pick up the phone, right? Because it's just our natural tendency and that generation especially the phone range will pick it up because back in day you wouldn't know what was it and pick it up. And so those kinds of things that it's like, no, you don't have to pick it up. mom's like, oh, well, I'll know to say no to them. And I'm like, no, you don't know how tricky they are. They're tricky, tricky. And the problem is that
They're fast moving, right? So they set up in Sarasota, Florida, and by the time the police or the FBI or the state is able to identify them, they've already moved to another place. And so you're so right. Education is so important for the scam side. It's much harder for education for the family side. It just really is because the hearts reach a different.
Speaker 1 (42:50.67)
Right? The reason like a lot of times if I do a scam, maybe I'm doing it because I think I'm going to make money. But if I'm being if my grandson is stealing from me, I just think I'm helping him or, you know, I'm in his house or so. Education isn't as effective. We're talking about exploitation from family. What is effective is to make sure that people are watching out for their hungry neighbors. That's where we really get.
You know, if I'm sitting in church, you know, next to somebody and they no longer coming to church or, you know, there's some, know, if I'm willing to say, Hey, that first of all, and see what's going on, that's really the best protection is, is almost educating our non elders to recognize the red flags and to have the resources to know what they should do. so
You might be surprised to find out that a lot of the education we do at churches and senior centers is to educate each other on what red flags we should be watching for, right? Like what should I be watching for to make sure that my neighbor is okay? Is it being isolated? Isolation is a big, big red flag for exploitation. And so yes, education is important, especially about
but sometimes the most important education is to be the eyes and ears that are watching out for our neighbors and watching for their friends.
Sounds like there's safety in numbers. The more people that can be surrounding the elder community and weaving in and out of that community, the more eyes and ears there are and can advocate for each other. Even a group of elderly people in community is going to be much more effective, I would guess, at looking out for each other than if they're solitary.
Speaker 1 (44:48.78)
Absolutely. And you will learn that the single best way to protect your family member from being abused in a nursing home is dropping in, right? It's the people that have nobody that is the eyes and ears of what's going on. They're the ones that are being maybe not abused, but certainly neglected, right? You know, if I'm going to be coming in every other day to see my mother-in-law,
they're going to make sure she's cleaned up, right? They're going to make sure that, you know, when I come into her room, her room is going to work a certain way. But if there's nobody coming in to visit somebody, those are going to be the ones that have been interrupted. So as you said it so well, you know, there's safety in numbers, there's safety in people watching out for other people. And that's why one of the things that we strongly encourage churches to do is to adopt a nursing.
Right? Now that was BC before COVID. But the idea of church members just dropping in to see people, they may not even know them, but they're dropping in. The nursing home knows that church is going to be there least once a week, once every other week. Makes all the difference in the world as to the care that's given.
So on the topic of education, I want to kind of turn a bit to law education. It sounds like you have a lot of wisdom and lessons to bestow upon your students and a lot of enthusiasm that would get them on board. I'm ready to enroll actually, at this very moment. What are some kinds of experiential?
learning projects and things that you do with your students at Stetson to help prepare them for this field.
Speaker 1 (46:41.518)
And that's such a great question. Because one of the things that I'll say to my students, so a student will come in and they'll be like, Professor Farris, I think I want to be an elderloger. They'll go, great. Do you like dealing with people that are older? wow. Well, that's the first qualification. You have to want to spend time with them. And so one of the things we like to do is give our students opportunities to spend time with elderly people. So we have a couple of different things.
We have a Masters in Maturity where our students would go to a local nursing home and do painting, right? So paint with them, let them paint. You know, them enjoy just interacting with people that are going to be their clients someday and also giving those people the opportunity to have young people come and hang out with them and paint. And then if they paint them, then they sell them.
to different people and they make a little extra money. So that's always been kind of one of my favorites. And we also have what's called wills for warriors, where basically we do free wills for people who are over 65 that were in the war. Because sometimes those folks just haven't thought about it. And so our students are able to interact directly with those individuals, get all the information they need.
Then work with an attorney to draw up the end of life documents. We want to give them a will and also talk to them about health care surrogates. We want to talk to them about living wills. We want talk to them about powers of attorney if that's what they're wanting to do. And then the student meets with the client again and watches them, watches the attorney do the kind of advisement that the attorney wants. Such a great experience for our students because they really get to see
the whole the beginning when you're trying to get the information, what kind of information you need and then watch it all the way through. Another thing that I love is our students do a tech again. We're doing tech classes at our student centers so that you know you could learn how to use Facebook. I will tell you Facebook has opened up my mother's world right and she's 91. She gets to talk to people she went to high school with. She gets to talk to
Speaker 1 (49:02.594)
You know her nieces and nephews in Baltimore. I mean, it's opened up the whole world for her. So us being able to help people get comfortable with that technology and also interact with people that are that age would be the age of most of the clients that these people are going to be working with is so important. And we just we love those opportunities because there's such great opportunities. And then I have to just. A shout out to our students.
So during COVID, we started a card writing for people that were in nursing homes. And our students produced over 5,000 cards that went to different nursing homes. Just to say, we're thinking about you. We know you're alone. And my goodness, the videos we would get from the nursing homes of the people who received cards was just
absolutely mind boggling and inspiring and just so proud of our students for all they did in that area to really reach out to that population, especially at a time when they were so alone, were so lonely and didn't have people to talk So one of the main things we want to do is we want to make sure when our students decide that they want to be elder watcher in these.
that they were giving us many opportunities to interact with the kind of clients that they're going to have, right? We are very much into networking. So we think it's really important that not only they network with people that are going to be their clients, but also that they actually really network with lawyers and really understand what your day-to-day life is going to look
like as an overwatcher. And so we are very excited when we're able to place students with different lawyers across the community so we can really get to know what's my life going to look like as an overwatcher. Because that's really the most important thing is am I going to be happy in this kind of career. Because one of the things I say, don't do three years of law school and then get a job with paint.
Speaker 1 (51:27.738)
you know, this is too much work. You come out of it with a job that you don't want to do. That on, you know, on Sunday night, you're like, tomorrow's Monday, I don't want to go to work. Right? So we want to make sure that we help students kind of find the place that they would like to be. And if elder law is that place, we're excited to help them find a job. And we also have clinics. We also have opportunities for students to work with lawyers and doing
exploitation cases in the prosecutor's office with people at the local Legal Aid Clinic who dealing with poverty issues and the elderly. And then we love to place them with judges so that they can see how the litigation side works and what's going to be important for them if they go into this area of law and they end up having to litigate issues. And so we have a variety of different ways for them to get out there and get experience from the health department.
briefly before we wrap up, did want to ask you a little birdie called the Internet told me that you received an award from the Student Bar Association for contributing to and supporting student life as someone in academia, other than just instructing. What are other ways that professors and law professors can support their students outside of the classroom?
I think one of the things we've really discovered during the pandemic is that students want one-on-one time with professors. They need one-on-one time with professors. And so the way we, especially here at Stetson, we support our students is that we have very open doors. If I don't get to spend time with a student on a day, I'm kind of like, oh, wow, this wasn't a very fun day, right?
Speaker 1 (53:27.916)
Because the most fun is sitting down with them and talking about their career plans and talking about what's going on in their world and being there for them to help them plan their career. So I think one of the things we truly believe is that the best way to support our students is to make sure that we make ourselves available to them. You know, there are some law schools where the most important thing for the professor to do is, you know,
have his nose to the grindstone and writing his next book or his next article or his next whatever. That doesn't support students. Yes, it's important. And yes, I've had to write. And yes, I still write. But what supports students is caring enough to give them what for all of us is a limited resource, which is all time. And if I am willing to give you my time one on one or in groups,
then what I'm saying is you're important to me and your success is important to me. And it's as important to me as my success. And so I think that's, for me, that's how I truly support students. Now, obviously, if you look back at my resume, I've been a coach. I've coached all kinds of trial teams and moot court teams and mediation and whatever. Love that, love that.
But if you were to ask me what I truly believe is the way that I support students is being willing to be one-on-one with them when they need me. And being willing to, you know, I teach criminal law, the first semester, first classes, they're totally lost on what they're to do. You know, I do a practice exam and I force each one of them to come to my office and talk to me for 30 minutes. You know, I get lonely, so I have to force students to come see me, right?
And that's my way of saying to them, I am interested in your performance and in your success. And I'm to my money where my mouth is because I believe that's really how you support students is being there for them.
Speaker 2 (55:39.084)
Love that. I wish I'd had a lot more of that when I was a student. I it would help me a lot. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us, Professor. I enjoyed hearing the things you had to say and a great pitch for Stetson and the Elder Law concentration for sure.
This has been Real Cases. Thank you for listening. Check back for more episodes about an array of legal topics presented by the Stetson University College of Law. Learn more at stetson.edu.
Topics: Real Cases Podcast
